Contradictory though it may seem. Now I am not saying that Eru caused that harm becuase he wanted to. I am merely saying he caused the harm for the 'Greater Good' in the world.

Though others may have other opinions.

Yep. I totally agree with that point. I DO believe that Eru did all this, just for a much greater well-being to all the people.

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Intriguing discussion you guys are having here.
Since I'm on Christmas break I don't have the trilogy with me and I don't have an English copy of the Silmarilion, on the contrary I've got the flu, so bear with me...

I find it interesting that no one has taken a closer look at Melkor's intentions as they are described in the Silmarilion. I have always seen Melkor as the misunderstood child with great powers he was not allowed to unfold and experience. From the Valaquenta I get the impression he actually tries to play along with the other Ainur, but he knows he can do better than the others, but father Ilúvatar wont let him. So the bright child is teased and cast out by the virtuous and righteous siblings lead by Manwë so he takes up refuge on the other side of the playground, claiming it for his own and wanting to build his own world there.
Well, this is my point transformed into kindergarden...

Someone was suggesting that being the supreme Creator is quite selfish and I tend to agree, but in Ilúvatar's case I think he plays the part of the remote god who who doesn't interfere with his creation. He created the Ainur, Eä and its inhabitants and then retired. So yeah, Ilúvatar believes in the Free Will policy.
I don't agree that he would know everything, and in that way creating Melkor only to be an instrument of his. I don't believe in evil, but I see it as free will and in that way some individuals idea of freedom may interfere with others'. I don't think Melkor intented to be 'evil' from the beginning, but with his actions he was seen and later labelled as such.

And now since this is turning too much into a discussion on good and evil, allow me to advertise my Good vs Evil thread some pages back in the Misc. LotR Book forum.

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>>Be the change you wish to see in the world<<



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Interesting. This is partly what we were saying. Melkor was only called 'Evil' becuase he did other than Eru told him. A better classification would have been 'different'.

Very interesting topic Eä. The way you describe the situation (in kindergarden terms), is very good.


That's probably true. But then, I think, in certain cases, he DOES interfere with his creation. Example:- following the Breaking of the Valar's Ban by the Numenoreans, led to the destruction of the island. Iluvatar had, indirectly, destroyed his own creation.


I tend to be on the contrary to that. I believe he did know everything that was, is and is to be. A typical example might be, The revelation of the Last Battle (the Dagor Dagorath).


Thank you for pointing this topic out. I sure will come and have a look at it! Thanks

Thanks.

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Yes, you may say so.. at least in the beginning he was different. What he did afterwards was done on purpose and downright 'evil' actions he performed simply to gain more power...

Eärendil, well, let me modify a little bit on the remote god that wouldn't know everything about his Creation. I was referring more to the fact that he is not a god that is very present to his creation. People of Middle-earth don't worship Ilúvatar or honour him religiously, and partly because he is not present in everyday life. On the other hand since he is the Creator, I do acknowledge the fact that he might be almighty, all-knowing and supreme. But once he set the board, he withdrew to let the pieces play the game...

By the way, thank you for your interest in my Good vs Evil topic. It has been dead and buried a long time now, but I digged it up.
http://arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11082
I don't expect you to read everything, because it is a long read, and mainly a discussion between two people, but feel free to post if you have anything to add on the topic and we'll start a new discussion

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>>Be the change you wish to see in the world<<



Banner credit: Shadowcat & Nurrantiel Mashiara

Thus as you do not believe Eru planned what is to be, it would be hard debating if you pity Melkor Ea... I did not expect anyone who believed Eru had not planned the history to pity Melkor.

In my first post here i did say that all evilr redounds to th eglory of Eru, this is not in question at all. I was merely saying that in th eshort term that teh evil f melkor restricted teh freedom of others. No more or mess. Also pity is not just for those things that are good that are afflicted. For example it was pity thta" stayed Bilbos hand." To many Gollum is totalus Evilis, but does that not mean we should pity him. At dagor Dagorath Melkor is gonnal do some awful stuff liek destroy sun+ moon, but Turambar shall slay him. Thus is it redresseda nd all will be fine. Bu as I sed, Evil and good varies on what you are talking about.
Also back to Ea's point, I think that eru never withdrew, just let ppl sort themselves out. There would have been no sil or lotr if Eru Mollycoddled everyone lol.
Hope my points have clarified my view and btw Lord of all, my name is Eonwesbestmate, Not eowynsbestmate.

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"This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck? "

though it may seem very religous: i think that tolkien got the idea of the making of the world from the bible. there are many similarities e.g. that melkor(satan) gets evil and tries to destroy the work of eru.
as a result i also think that we cannot really understand the intentions of eru because he is like god "in the real world".

Further eru has given men the gift of freedom of himself and the world(sil) so it seems he didnt plan the deeds of them but he knows them because he made everything (this sounds unlogical however). if he had interfered in the doings of his children it would have seemed that they were merely puppets of his own but they have indeed a free will.

P.S. were can i read about the dagor dagorath and this stuff we're discussing about?

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><>Son of God, brother of Jesus. I've got the best family I could have imagined! Saved by his mercy and love. What else could I wish for?<><

True indeed Tolkien did base alot of his works on the bible, but his myth was never meant to be based on anything. Tolkien himself says his works are not allegory, though indeed you may find them occasionally.

Here is the link to a thread I have created concerning the Dagor Dagorath:

http://www.arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=661758#661758

can i also find in some book stories about the 4.-9. age?

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><>Son of God, brother of Jesus. I've got the best family I could have imagined! Saved by his mercy and love. What else could I wish for?<><

No. A very small amount is listed about the 4th Age, but somewhere - I believe in hisLetters, Tolkien says that the 6th Age ended with WW2. Asfor the 9th Age that is speculation on my part.

do you know anything about WWII?

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><>Son of God, brother of Jesus. I've got the best family I could have imagined! Saved by his mercy and love. What else could I wish for?<><

Bits a pieces. Why do you ask?

because i want to know about it of course. as you can see i'm really interested in this topic so i'd like to know whether you can tell me more about this or perhaps where i can find out.

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><>Son of God, brother of Jesus. I've got the best family I could have imagined! Saved by his mercy and love. What else could I wish for?<><

When I say WW2 I mean World War 2. OUR world War 2.