As we all know, saruman the white, became saruman of colors because of his betrayal and his increase in power. But why did he do it? was it out of greed, or fear, or both?

Very good topic to bring up slalomer!

I think his betrayal might have been out of both out of fear and greed. We all know that he wanted power. He didn't want to be the second best next to Sauron. Unfortunately, that was all he could be and he took it. It was the highest position he could get, and I think the prospect of an even higher one once Sauron returned to power might have motivated him also.
As for fear I believe it played just as equal a part. Everyone wants to be on the winning side in a battle. I think he may have thought that the "good" side was losing, and he didn't want to take that risk of being punished in the end. So, he switched sides in the hopes of power in the end. In short he was afraid of the punishment he could recieve from Sauron at his return to power. Though that never happened.

Part of the reason he betrayed the White Council was because he wanted the ring for his own. He was trying to find it before Sauron did so he could rival him for Lordship over middle-earth.

For that reason I would say it was mostly greed that fired Saruman's betrayal. However I think that Sauron saw his mind, and was somehow able to get him to 'serve' him so domination could be gained easier. I don't think Saruman ever considered taking up a position under Sauron, I find it more likely that they were both using each other to achieve their designs.

I agree!!^^

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Indeed, I must say I agree completely.

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Funny you should say that because I was just thinking about something like this today. Isn't it funny how evil people are all sort of against each other? I mean, they pretend to form alliances, but really, all they're trying to do with alliances is to gain something off of the other one. They wouldn't care if their ally was completely destroyed, so long as they get what they want out of them. They're evil to the rest of the world, but they're evil amonst themselves as well. It makes it slightly easier on the good guys. Slightly.
I think that both fear and greed drove Saruman to betrayal. He was afraid of what would happen "when" Sauron took over. So he decided to get on Sauron's good side. I think after the initial fear, he saw how much power there was for him and how much their was for the taking. I think after that his motives were mostly greed related. After all, he does say something to Gandalf as though he plans to overthrow Sauron once he has Middle-earth. So clearly if he was afraid at first, he soon grew over confident in his own powers, and he stayed with Sauron out of greed.
End of speech.

Saruman had studied the One Ring for a long time and learned almost everything about it; history, powers, it's evil doings but also it's possibilities. By the time of it's finding he must have longed to see it so badly (and I can't help making a reference to Teabing in DaVinci Code, who had become obsessed with the Holy Grail after having studied it for so long, sorry to those who aren't familiar with it).

Actually I doubt Saruman ever turned evil... but I do have a problem with the distinction with what we label "good" and "evil". He, along with the other Istari, was sent from the Undying Lands to assist the People of Middle-earth against the dark powers, but the istari were given a free will. I think Saruman really believed - at least in the beginning - that knowledge would assist him in the battle. He had great knowledge of the ring and he was a powerful wizard, so he might have believed he could wield the One Ring and use it against Sauron. Powerful people were drawn to the ring, Gandalf and Galadriel both desired it in a way, but they also realized the Ring would be too great a match for them, so they refused and withstood its attraction before they got caught in its spell. Saruman was too proud to realize his own limits and thought he was strong enough to control the new powers (the many colors) given to him, but in reality he was already defeated by them and had fallen. The Ring had corrupted him.

I don't think Saruman feared Sauron. Because of his pride he might have seen himself as an equal match to Sauron, and he might have meant to do good with the power of the ring (much like what Galadriel speaks of at the mirror), but he failed to realize that the Ring eventually would win, because it was forged to answer only to the wil of the dark lord.

(I wont take the discussionon on good and evil here, but I think it is a way of simplifying things to say that "the evil is evil even to his allies". Because what is evil and when does one become evil? Saruman as an example wasn't "evil" from the beginning, so where exactly did he fall? But this could be long, I would love to debate it somewhere else.)

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Ah. the ever present of topcic of good versus evil. Ea, if you open that thread, I will be there. The ultimate debate! Count me in!
I think you're right about Saruman. He didn't start of as evil. Nothing starts as evil but corruption and tremptataion creep in and overpower the good in people's hearts. Saruman was proud. That seems to be the downfall of a lot of the villains in Tolkien's works. They overestimate their own power, and are punished accordingly.

Aye, start a Good v Evil thread. many point I could make on the topic, but won't here

And i think you are right about Saruman being tooo proud. As you said, both Gandalf and Galadriel had the chance to take it, but knew what would happen if they did. Saruman did not do this, and therefore he was 'consumed' by the ring. All his efforts were concentrated on getting it for himself.

A very good point that I have not thought of. Through out many fantasy books we read about a character that is "under" another character, but they are both on the same side. It seems that evil only wants to do things for its self. Both Sauron and Saruman were power hungry. Technically, Saruman was supposed to be working for Sauron. But when Sauron was reduced to the blood-shot little eye on the tower, Saruman took things into his own hands. I think there was a lot of back stabbing on both sides, if you catch my drift.

Well said T.T and Darrell. In my understanding only the One Ring was truly evil and that simply because it was an object, a dead thing, that was created with only one purpose; to dominate.

[Thank you for your comments on good and evil, I really appreciate debating with you all! Didn't we have a thread on this once... or was it at the old forum? Well, I might open a thread in Misc. LotR...]

[EDIT: Thread on Good and Evil in Misc. LotR Book Discussion:
http://arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtop ... 581#548581]

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[s]Well said T.T and Darrell. In my understanding only the One Ring was truly evil and that simply because it was an object, a dead thing, that was created with only one purpose; to dominate.

[Thank you for your comments on good and evil, I really appreciate debating with you all! Didn't we have a thread on this once... or was it at the old forum? Well, I might open a thread in Misc. LotR...]

[EDIT: Thread on Good and Evil in Misc. LotR Book Discussion:
http://arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtop ... 581#548581][/s]

EDIT: Sorry, for the double post. Unfortunately I can't delete it. Please disregard it.

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Oh goodie! I'll definitely be posting there! In fact, maybe right now............................................

thanks!!!!

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I personally think the reason was fear, because otherwise he would have become evil long ago in my opinion. He was the head of the order and such a wise person, I don't think it was actually greed. I think he was afraid of Sauron's power and he didn't want to be on the side of the "losers"

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I believe it is suggested in Tolkiens writings that he was already starting on the path of 'evil' when the council was formed, so the council would have had little influence on him turning against those who called him friend. There is little doubt he was at least slightly afraid, but by his actions I would suggest that he thought he could rival him.