It is interesting in Lord of the Rings that good is achieved by obedience to “the Rules,” as Tolkien put it in one of his letters, even when that obedience seems foolish or even suicidal, and to risks not only the protagonist’s lives but the survival of the world.

This was especially evident in several instances:

In the decision Aragorn had to make between pursuing the Orks immediately—what he felt was his only chance to save the world or taking time to bury Boromir.

In Gandalf’s decision to humble and sacrifice himself for others in spite of the fact that I’m sure it seemed to him that he was the only hope of any of them ever getting to their destination.

In the decisions of Bilbo, Gandalf, Frodo, the elves, Sam and Faramir to show mercy and pity to Gollum so he does what no one could have done on their own, and what he does not intend to do: Cast the Ring into the Crack of Doom and save the world.

Each of these choices make little sense to us because why should being so particular in doing what is “right” matter? I'm just wonder what you think. What makes everything work out in spite of not doing what seems to be the rational thing to do—a high power or coincidence?

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"If you do not find a way, no one will."

I think it's a mixture of coincidence and a higher power. But I think the Fellowship didn't succeed because they obeyed "the rules" I think they just listened to their heart and did what they thought was right. I think it's pretty normal that you sacrifice something for your friends if you really like them and I think that most of us don't always make rational decisions.

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That's an incredible observation. I've thought about the Gollum one before, but never the other ones in that context. I think it is meant to reflect the honourable traits in Tolkein's characters; their loyalties, honor, goodness, humility, etc. It gives you hope when thinking that doing something illogical just because it's right may in fact turn out to be a very good thing. When everyone os screaming at Frodo: "Get rid of Gollum already!", it is funny that the quest would not have succeeded without Gollum. And yes, the higher power is definitely there. Tolkein was religious. But I like that about Lord of the Rings: sometimes you have to do what's right and leave the rest up to God (or Eru )

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Thank you for five-plus wonderful years of obsession, friendship and fun

I think we are saying the same thing is different ways. If there is a moral code to be obeyed it is bound up in the universal concept of love or other centeredness. There is no morality outside of “loving your neighbor as yourself”. The sacrifices that you mentioned as being normal; expressed in the pity for Gollum, the respect for Boromir and his family, Gandalf’s “death” and in many other ways in LotR, are all just examples of what it means to follow that cosmic “rule” of love. Like you say, often it is a heart thing and sometimes it is a rational decision but it still remains that they followed and because they followed, things worked out well for them. Remember, there are those who chose a different course and the outcome was less desirable.



I like that too!

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"If you do not find a way, no one will."

^
yeah I think so too. I just missunderstood what you said in your first post I guess..

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I'd love to answer this question in a simple way, yet I don't think I can. If you consider Eru to be an almost God-like character then the idea of a higher power seems to be obvious. However, that brings up the ever constant issue between whether Fate/Destiny rule or lives or if our own decisions rule our lives?

Did Eru know beforehand that everything would turn out alright and that Gollum would cast the Ring into Mt.Doom? Or did he find himself tweaking the people of ME's actions to suit the best course? What about our free will then? If Eru does not control the actions of his people, that must mean our power of choice is a great one.

But if they choose wrongly does that mess up the "great plan" that Eru has set? Does he even have a great plan? There are too many factors here I think for me to decide upon one asnwer...

^ Yeah, I have to agree with Larael.

- Tolkien knew there was a higher power, and he had that in his books.
- But how much did Tolkien believe in predestination?

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Albert Einstein once said, "I am convinced the Old One does not play dice." And chaos theorist Joseph Ford said, "God plays dice with the universe, but they're loaded dice." Tolkien certainly believed in the concept that humans had real choice and that, even so, many things were “meant” to be.

Chance is a seemingly random, unexpected and unforeseen outcome of events. This outcome comes about because of the many factors involved that aren’t seen or anticipated. Things happen this way because of the order that comes out of the inevitable connection of all things, the order which flows from the source which is Providence and which brings all things about, each in its proper time and place. Everything in our universe, including chance and fate, has purpose, even if that purpose is beyond the perception of human understanding.

Even though many events seem discordant and chaotic from our temporal perspective, they really aren’t because they are subject to this order that proceeds from Providence. Eru made all thing and by His power they exist and continue to function. Every atom and force field—everything animate and inanimate is created and sustained by Eru. He allows for choice but even if by chance we change our minds we cannot frustrate Providence. Eru sees that you can and whether or not you will. You cannot frustrate the divine knowledge any more than you can escape the eye of someone who is present and watching you, even though you may, by your free will, vary your actions.

Because of this, I think there is a plan for each of us. I think we have a dynamic part in designing that plan through our choices. How can we look at the world around us and say there is not a plan? All of the complexity and intricate design in our world begs to have a plan. It only makes sense if you think about human craftsmen and human desire—we plan. And if we don’t the result isn’t very impressive.

Though it may seem incredulous to the human mind, Providence can take all of man’s diverse choices in the complex web of the entirety of the universe and work them dynamically according to His master plan. But that in no way takes away our real freedom to choose our course. Certainly Eru’s desire is for us to make good choices but he must leave that to us.

With this understanding of Providence, I don’t see a problem aligning divine foreknowledge with real and dynamic freedom of choice.

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"If you do not find a way, no one will."

:worship: You're a genius, Sinbearer. Not too long ago, I was having a discussion with another member here, Darrell, about Fate/Destiny. Our conversation went in circles most of the time as we were both unsure exactly how we would define such things as Fate/Destiny. You, Sinbearer, have tied these two concepts to together in a completely understandable way. Thank you.

And, if it is not too forward of me to ask, I would like to know if you are in any sort of preacher/reverand/pastor, etc? You're constant connections to the Word and Christ are always enlightening to me. So thank you once again.

Larael, you beat me to the punch. I could paraphrase you and compliment Sinbearer again and ask roughly the same question, but it'd be pretty much pointless.

I'll do it anyway.

Sinbearer, you're incredible. You're insight into every last topic you post in is nothing short of remarkable, and very, very (to use Larael's word) enlightening.

And I second Larael's question.

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My opinion is that the fellowship understood that you can't really achieve anything if you just look out for yourself.

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One of my classes this past semester dealt with providence and human free will. I believe that deep in the divine mind--there has got to be some melding of the two. We are not robots just programmed to do specific tasks and never divert. Yet, at the same time...we each have a path destined for us--and we choose it. It's mind-boggling!

Sometimes doing what is right is scorned by others because it often does not make sense. The results are not in our hands! We can choose freely all we want, and yet, there is an element that is totally out of our hands. My professor once was giving a lecture on free will vs. destiny/fate/providence (whatever!)--and there is a kind of philosophy that says that there is no providence, God is not sovereign at all, but fashions a plan according to our 'free' wills. But, said my professor, I don't want that freedom! As people, there are some responsibilities too great for us--our task is to follow the path and make choices based on our best abilities and judgements. That is how I see it, as of now