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How do you feel about the MOVIE character, Denethor? I guess it's kind of a love or hate thing. Either you love him or you hate him. (Btw, I'm not trying to bash him in any way.)

First off I would like to say that John Noble did a brilliant job playing the part of Denethor. He was perfectly portrayed, probably the closest portrayel of one of Tolkien's characters.

For me I absolutely loathed and despised Denethor (I will not say hate becuase that is a strong word). Out of all the "evil" characters in LotR Denethor has won the prize for bieng the most evil of them all. Even more that Sauron and Saruman combined.

I loathed the way he played favourites wth his son's, the way he seemed to blame Faramir for Boromir's death, the way he didn't even care a bit if Faramir died or not. The lines that just kill me everytime and make me cry are:

Faramir:You wish now that our places had been exchanged... that I had died and Boromir had lived.
Denethor: Yes.
Denethor: I wish that.
Faramir: Since you are robbed of Boromir... I will do what I can in his stead.
Faramir: If I should return, think better of me, Father.
Denethor: That will depend on the manner of your return.

The last part chokes me up so much... how could anyone say something like that, especially to their only living son!

I know Denethor is grieving and has been somewhat maddened by first the death of his wife much earlier, and then the death of his first son, but why couldn't he just love Faramir the way he loved Boromir. Actually, he should be embracing Faramir and holding on to him, becuase he is the only family he has left.

Another thing that makes me cry buckets is a line from Gandalf:

Gandalf:Your father loves you, Faramir. He will remember it before the end.

And then Denethor somewhat redeems himself by finally realizing he loves Faramir, when he thinks that Faramir is dead, and then he (D.) tries to kill.
him. Well, what can I say...?

Anyway, I think I actually feel pity for Denethor when he realizes that his last son is alive, but it is too late, and he is then engulfed in flames. The look on his face is pure realization and love for his son.

http://www.tevildiel.com/sc/rotk/img/PoD061.jpg

It really is to bad that he did not remember it before his end... :confused:

Well, there is my rant...hope you took the time to read it. So, now I want to know how you feel about Denethor?

Author:	Larael [ September 20th, 2005, 10:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Denethor
How do you feel about the MOVIE character, Denethor? I guess it's kind of a love or hate thing. Either you love him or you hate him. (Btw, I'm not trying to bash him in any way.) First off I would like to say that John Noble did a brilliant job playing the part of Denethor. He was perfectly portrayed, probably the closest portrayel of one of Tolkien's characters. For me I absolutely loathed and despised Denethor (I will not say hate becuase that is a strong word). Out of all the "evil" characters in LotR Denethor has won the prize for bieng the most evil of them all. Even more that Sauron and Saruman combined. I loathed the way he played favourites wth his son's, the way he seemed to blame Faramir for Boromir's death, the way he didn't even care a bit if Faramir died or not. The lines that just kill me everytime and make me cry are: Faramir:You wish now that our places had been exchanged... that I had died and Boromir had lived. Denethor: Yes. Denethor: I wish that. Faramir: Since you are robbed of Boromir... I will do what I can in his stead. Faramir: If I should return, think better of me, Father. Denethor: That will depend on the manner of your return. The last part chokes me up so much... how could anyone say something like that, especially to their only living son! I know Denethor is grieving and has been somewhat maddened by first the death of his wife much earlier, and then the death of his first son, but why couldn't he just love Faramir the way he loved Boromir. Actually, he should be embracing Faramir and holding on to him, becuase he is the only family he has left. Another thing that makes me cry buckets is a line from Gandalf: Gandalf:Your father loves you, Faramir. He will remember it before the end. And then Denethor somewhat redeems himself by finally realizing he loves Faramir, when he thinks that Faramir is dead, and then he (D.) tries to kill. him. Well, what can I say...? Anyway, I think I actually feel pity for Denethor when he realizes that his last son is alive, but it is too late, and he is then engulfed in flames. The look on his face is pure realization and love for his son. http://www.tevildiel.com/sc/rotk/img/PoD061.jpg It really is to bad that he did not remember it before his end... Well, there is my rant...hope you took the time to read it. So, now I want to know how you feel about Denethor?

Author:	Antigone [ September 21st, 2005, 5:16 am ]
Post subject:
Well, I neither like him nor hate him. I mean, he wasn't always the way he was during the War. Probably he was sad about his wife's death, the fact Faramir wasn't a perfect, clueless warrior and he tended to look into his Palantir. That last thing made him ...um, crazy. I'd like to see more of his youth (or read about it).

Author:	Nienor [ September 22nd, 2005, 7:09 am ]
Post subject:
I feel very strongly that Denethor should not be called evil. Firstly, his wife died at a young age. Any man, no matter how strong, would find that hard to bear! And think of the weight of having to watch over a city right before the gates of an ever-strengthening Mordor! That in itself might destroy some men. Denethor was very strong. But he made one fatal mistake: he looked into the Palantir. He thought he could prevail over whatever he saw. He was wrong; Sauron managed to subtly convince him that all was hopeless. Imagine what a victory this was for Sauron! What better way to gain an advantage over a city than to take away the leader's confidence? When Boromir died, no doubt Denethor took this as confirmation that the city was lost, the world was lost, and there was no hope left. He viewed Boromir as one of the strongest in the world, but Boromir was overpowered.

Author:	Raivynn Phoenix [ September 22nd, 2005, 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:
rousing applause I don't think I could have said it better myself. The Palantir was Denethor's ultimate downfall. I to have a big problem with Denethor being labelled as "evil", I have both the Forces of Light and Forces of Darkness calendars and to see him on the Darkness one just makes me feel sad as there was far more to Denethor than met the eye.

Author:	elrondschild [ September 22nd, 2005, 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Denethor
Larael Greenleaf wrote: How do you feel about the MOVIE character, Denethor? I guess it's kind of a love or hate thing. Either you love him or you hate him. (Btw, I'm not trying to bash him in any way.) First off I would like to say that John Noble did a brilliant job playing the part of Denethor. He was perfectly portrayed, probably the closest portrayel of one of Tolkien's characters. For me I absolutely loathed and despised Denethor (I will not say hate becuase that is a strong word). Out of all the "evil" characters in LotR Denethor has won the prize for bieng the most evil of them all. Even more that Sauron and Saruman combined. I loathed the way he played favourites wth his son's, the way he seemed to blame Faramir for Boromir's death, the way he didn't even care a bit if Faramir died or not. The lines that just kill me everytime and make me cry are: Faramir:You wish now that our places had been exchanged... that I had died and Boromir had lived. Denethor: Yes. Denethor: I wish that. Faramir: Since you are robbed of Boromir... I will do what I can in his stead. Faramir: If I should return, think better of me, Father. Denethor: That will depend on the manner of your return. The last part chokes me up so much... how could anyone say something like that, especially to their only living son! I know Denethor is grieving and has been somewhat maddened by first the death of his wife much earlier, and then the death of his first son, but why couldn't he just love Faramir the way he loved Boromir. Actually, he should be embracing Faramir and holding on to him, becuase he is the only family he has left. Another thing that makes me cry buckets is a line from Gandalf: Gandalf:Your father loves you, Faramir. He will remember it before the end. And then Denethor somewhat redeems himself by finally realizing he loves Faramir, when he thinks that Faramir is dead, and then he (D.) tries to kill. him. Well, what can I say...? Anyway, I think I actually feel pity for Denethor when he realizes that his last son is alive, but it is too late, and he is then engulfed in flames. The look on his face is pure realization and love for his son. http://www.tevildiel.com/sc/rotk/img/PoD061.jpg It really is to bad that he did not remember it before his end... Well, there is my rant...hope you took the time to read it. So, now I want to know how you feel about Denethor? I disagree with that prart were you said that John Noble did the best job. Think (WITHOUT being byst you would tell because you would see me blush through you screen) Sean Astin did the best job!

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Author:	Mablung [ September 23rd, 2005, 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:
I agree with most of your points Larael. The movie version of Denethor was, for me, a hateful character. I wouldn't put him in the same category as Saruman and Sauron - after all he had no designs on destroying Middle Earth - but there was very little in the movie character to like - even with his last minute I loved you really! look at Faramir before he bursts into flames. I have to admit that I always smile with satisfaction when Gandalf whacks him with his staff! I also think that John Noble gave a fine performance in the role. He could easily have fallen into caricature, but kept a good control on his portrayal so that I never felt that he was turning into a Pantomime character. The only thing I can't agree with is that this was a close portrayal of one of Tolkien's characters. To be honest, if anything, I thought the screenwriters did a great disservice to the character. While the main events (by and large) unfold in the film almost as they did in the book, movie Denethor reacts completely differently to book Denethor at nearly every point. The film also gives no reason for Denethor's behaviour - there is no mention of the Palantir, so you are left with the impression that he has always been the way he is now. But, having said that, I can understand the writer's motives - after all in a movie that is already over three hours long, you just don't have time to develop one of the less prominent characters to the extent that Denethor needs. I think that is why the movie Denethor appears to be so much nastier than the book version.

Author:	Raivynn Phoenix [ September 24th, 2005, 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:
Awesome post. I agree the Peter, Fran and Philippa did the character a huge disservice by not introducing the Palantir somehow into the movie, even for just a small scene in the EE's. Something to show that Denethor was being manipulated and being driven mad by Sauron. However, I still think with the material that John Noble was given. He still did the best job he possibly could and I thought that he did an excellent job portraying Denethor. Imagine what he could have done with a Palantir scene.

Author:	Larael [ September 24th, 2005, 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:
I reall hope I didn't offend anyone by saying Denethor was "evil", it was just the first word that came to mind... Anyway, all of you have very good points. I must admit that I totally forgot about Denethor using the Palantir. That is probably the main cause of his "madness". There is only one scene in the whole of RotK where Denethor's Palantir is shown, and Aragorn is the one using it. I know they want to show that Aragorn is strong and stuff, but I think that if they were going to show a scene with Denethor's Palantir it should be with Denethor using it, otherwise I see no point in showing it at all except to give Aragorn a strong, kingly quality. Btw, elrondschild if that's your opinion then that is quite all right. I agree that Sean Astin did a wonderful job, but I don't think this is appropraite thread for discussing this.

Author:	Nienor [ September 25th, 2005, 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:
Don't worry about offense...anyone in their right mind shouldn't take offense at someone else's opinion unless it's in an offensive form! I agree with what was said about John Noble portraying Denethor very well. Never blame an actor for what the director has him do, never. And I could never be angry with PJ, anyway, he did what he had to. But I definitely think that one little palantir scene could've explained much more.

Author:	Kerlion [ September 25th, 2005, 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:
the death of his son made him go crazy and mad, and i feel sorry for him, but your making faramir go unloved and sad just because you love the deads son more then him

Author:	Larael [ September 25th, 2005, 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:
Nienor wrote: Don't worry about offense...anyone in their right mind shouldn't take offense at someone else's opinion unless it's in an offensive form! I agree with what was said about John Noble portraying Denethor very well. Never blame an actor for what the director has him do, never. And I could never be angry with PJ, anyway, he did what he had to. But I definitely think that one little palantir scene could've explained much more. I definantly agree!

Author:	Nazgulette [ November 2nd, 2005, 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:
Denethor sucks for sure... I really hate him and he's disgusting when he eats. He's REALLY mean to Faramir and Pippin =( and I like the part where Gandalf hits him with his staff =P

Author:	elrondschild [ November 5th, 2005, 10:59 am ]
Post subject:
He wasen't one of my favorite characters but wasen't all bad, and you'de think that the Stwert would have better manners!

Author:	Maneth Eruvadhril [ November 5th, 2005, 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:
the fact that he pretty much didnt cared if his son died, and told him to his FACE that he wished places have been exchanged, made me loath him, but at the same time, you cant help but to pity him, cuz from the beggining you just can tell the guy is not really sane I cant help, every time I see the convo Quote: Faramir:You wish now that our places had been exchanged... that I had died and Boromir had lived. Denethor: Yes. Denethor: I wish that. Faramir: Since you are robbed of Boromir... I will do what I can in his stead. Faramir: If I should return, think better of me, Father. Denethor: That will depend on the manner of your return. to just SCREAM "he's your SON! you S.O.B.!" haha! I get too involved with the character

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Author:	RosieCotton [ November 19th, 2005, 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:
Denathor is pretty lame