hes an alegory of lucifer,the fallen angel.

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I agree that he could be an allegory, but I don't think Tolkien really intended him to be.

He is Satan in Tolkien's myth.

Yes, yes he could be seen that way, but I'm saying, did Tolkien really want allegories in his books or did he intend to put any in there?

he seems to have been unsure himself.in his letters he says there is alot of alegorys.

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yeah I also am not sure about that. Sometimes he says he really dislikes allegory, but then some things seem to be very allegorical..

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'..my mind does not work allegorically'~144


'I think that fairy story has its own mode of reflecting ';truth';, different from allegory'~


'The story is not about JRRT at all, and is at no point an attempt to allegorize his experience of life.'~183


'There is no symbolism or conscious allegory in my story.'~203


'I have no didactic purpose, and no allegorical intent.'~215


Those are letters by Tolkien.

methinks the lady doth protest too much

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proud to be a pipe smoker like JJRT

Excuse me... I'm hoping that comment wasn't directed at me.

Back to what Lord of all posted, I have to say that those are very good examples from Tolkien's letters. Thanks for pointing that out.
So, there are many allegories in the books even if Tolkien had not meant for them to be there.

I don't think Tolkien's allegories were very conscious. You can find an absolute ton of them, but I don't think they're there because, when he was writing, he went, "Aha! An allegory!" You know?

As for Melkor, I've always thought he wanted to be on the same level as Iluvatar and it irked him that he wasn't powerful enough. Iluvatar was capable of creating, and that was something Melkor could not ever hope to live up to - evil cannot create, it can only mock and twist what is good. Darkness is only the absence of light.

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I beg to differ.

Iluvatar could not create life - the Flame Imperishable did that, which is something seperate from Iluvatar.

See this topic about the Flame Imperishable:

http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=77580&p=3&topicID=7114867&subForumID=226975&topicPage=

Also about the Power of Melkor and Iluvatar I recommend seeing this thread:

http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=77580&p=3&topicID=6627002&subForumID=242669&topicPage=

Au contraire - Iluvatar created the Ainur, did he not? In the Silmarillion, first page of the Ainulindale, it says:

There was Eru, the one, who in Arda is called Iluvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made.

Boldened words are emphasis by me. This passage seems to me to clarify beyond all doubt that Iluvatar did, in fact, create the Ainur. Granted, it does say farther on:

And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme...

Which does seem to say that Iluvatar and the Flame Imperishable are two separate things. BUT, in my Complete Guide to Middle-Earth, by Robert Foster, the Flame Imperishable is defined as: The creating spirit of Iluvatar, by which the Ainur and Ea were made, possessed by Iluvatar alone.

So they may in fact be two entities, but the Flame Imperishable was possessed by Iluvatar alone, which means that he can in fact create through it.

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yes I also thought Iluvatar created the Ainur and all that, but I may be wrong of course.

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You are both partially correct.

Iluvatar created the Ainur yes, but with the Flame Imperishable, not utterly by himself.

But if you think you can get around this then here is the main argument I have:

The minds of the Ainur were simply the mind of Eru split up into different beings. The Ainur were not beings entirely independent - they were Eru's mind.
The Valar had the power to make other beings to, but they could only make beings that were of there mind.

Aule is an example of this:

"Now Ilúvatar knew what was done, and in the very hour that Aulë's work was complete, and he was pleased, and began to instruct the Dwarves in the speech that he had devised for them, Ilúvatar spoke to him; and Aulë heard his voice and was silent. And the voice of Ilúvatar said to him: 'Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own bring only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?"
The silmarillion

To put it in simpler terms, Aule distributed HIS OWN mind amoungst the bodies of the Dwarves. They could only move when Aule told them, they WERE Aule.

So All the Ainur could make beings, but these beings were own segments of the makers own minds. The ONLY thing that could make a unique being - that is a being apart from others - is the Flame Imperishable, which is a 'thing' not a power of Iluvatar - Iluvatar could pass the Flame onto another if he wished.

Okay, what you're saying makes sense for the most part, but that last bit, confuses me. I thought the Flame was part of Iluvatar, so how could he pass it on?

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Alright I think I understand what you're saying Lord of all.. yeah I also read that he created the Ainur with the Flame Imperishable and that he could pass it on and that the Ainur were part of his mind and so on, but they partly got a free will afterwards, didn't they (I mean Melkor became evil and I don't think that Iluvatar's mind was evil) ?? And the dwarves could also move on their own afterwards, because they ran away from Aule's hammer, but at first of course they only moved when Aule told them and they were hidden by him until the elves came, so they were still partially under his control.

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