The concepts of "good" and "evil" keep haunting me, so I finally decided (*cough* was persuaded *cough*) to start a thread on it.

The forces of Good and Evil seem to be a recurring theme in Tolkien's work. The battle between light and dark is universal and have been portrayed in so many versions since the beginning of our time. It is a simple and yet so complex issue, which also plays a big part in Middle-earth.
I have touched on the subject with many of you on various occasions, but we never had the opportunity to debate the topic through. I considered where to start the thread. There are so many aspects and perspectives on the theme, and I figured we would need a reference point, at least for a start, so I decided to put it in the Miscellaneous Book Discussion.
I realize the theme can be sensitive, if we draw too much on current conflict or politics, so I would encourage to put the main focus on how Tolkien (and perhaps Peter Jackson) presents the concepts of good and evil - at least for a start.
Thank you and well met to a (hopefully) interesting debate.

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Ilúvatar created Arda and from him came the Ainur, who were the
offspring of Ilúvatar - but also had a free will of their own. The Silmarilion tells how Melkor turns aside from his brothers and sisters, and into what is percieved as evil. Why does he do that? And why do we percieve his choices and actions as bad, couldn't they simply be an expression of the free will, that he had other ideas than the others?

Saruman turns aside and chooses another path; he abandons White and takes on the Many Colors. We percieve him as evil.
Isildur, Boromir and Gollum are all corrupted by the One Ring (and I wont go into detail, since there are numerous topics dealing specifically with this).
In this case I believe the One Ring is the only thing to blame. It is an object and was made with only one purpose; to dominate. It was forged by the Dark Lord and he put only his evil will into it. An object is not moved by any feelings or internal or external actions, only the people using it is.

Well, Tolkien puts good and evil in opposition to one another, but is it really this black and white when we think about it? (of course it is in the book, otherwise there wouldn't be a story line and a plot!) Aren't people driven by all kinds of forces when they choose sides? As i mentioned elsewhere, I'm not sure Saruman considered himself evil when he started his own chase of the Ring. He might have believed he could control it and defeat the Dark Lord with it... but failed to realize the Ring's true power.

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Yes. Interesting topic. I think the Ring had a lot to do with Saruman choosing sides. I think the evil characters in Tolkien chose the evil side because of a deep empty need inside of themselves. All too often, the evil path is easiest, and is most obviously 'promising'.

To make light of it, your banner is a good example of this, Ea. The Dark Side apparently has cookies--it is an obvious reward, and looks very tempting to someone who has not been satisfied by the light side. Now, I'm not trying to make real good and evil as light-hearted as that, and it is a cool banner, by the way...but it is the principle of the thing.

Compare this to the good side. The Fellowship faces most certain doom at the end of their journey. There are no obvious rewards. "The quest stands upon the edge of a knife, stray but a little, and you will fail, to the ruin of all." Sounds encouraging, doesn't it? Saruman thinks Gandalf is a complete fool for not joining with him and Sauron. To follow the good path looks like folly to the rest of the world, but it is the one with the sweetest rewards. They are not obvious rewards.

Also, it is interesting how Tolkien displays the concepts of good vs. evil in his works. Those who join the 'dark side' are solitary and alone. For those who follow the good path, there is friendship and love (the Fellowship of the Ring!). We can't imagine Saruman or Sauron having any good friends willing to pull them up a mountain or put themselves in danger to save their lives. The dark path is lonely, the light path, while difficult is one of community and fellowship.

As you said, there are many different forces driving people to evil. The Ring is to blame, but the characters have their own choice to make about how they respond to the Ring's offer of power. It is a good example of how twisted a heart can become because of the Ring.

Well said Vikingmaiden. There is not much I can add to that.

I agree that people are often driven to evil because they see it as rewarding. They see the power that can come from evil and they want some of it for them selves. Melkor becomes evil because he wishes to become more powerful then Iluvatar. But Iluvatar says that Melkor will only serve as but an instrument of his will in the making of things more wonderful. So, that in mind, does evil have it's own purpose? I also think fear is a big driving factor. People are afraid of not being powerful, of being dominated by other forces. Thus, they turn to evil to avoid being taken over by greater evils.
Actually, one of those stupid signs they hang in classrooms kind of sums it up. It said "What's right is not always easy. What's easy is not always right." It's a very true statment. So often it is easier to take the wrong path.
The motives behind evil are clear and they are numerous. But what I wonder, are the motives for good? As said, Frodo and Co face a mission of doom and almost certain death. What makes them go on? Why should they be the ones to take the quest upon their shoulders, Frodo bearing the heaviest burden, yet being one of the most insignificant. I think that their reason must be love. Pure, unselfish love. Love for others rather then themselves. They went to their dooms for Middle-earth. for the land and the people that they love. They struggled and went through so many hardships and obstacles, and it was love that kept them going until the end.
Ok. I think I have ranted enough for one post. Thoughts anyone?

I think you are right about why people go to the 'dark side'. It seems easier, and apparently more, greater rewards. Most who go for dark over light want power, and want it swiftly. Not the sort of power that comes from wisdom or friendship, but the power which means they are in control, and they choose what happens in their 'dominion'. They don't have the will or patience to develop power through wisdom and friends. It comes back to what is easiest, and fastest.

Obviously some choose that route to avoid domination themselves, but they often end up as bad as those they seeked to avoid. A good example of this is Saruman. he did not want to be under Sauron's control, and because he gave up hope in the Light he turned to dark, in an attempt to remain his own master. It was the wrong decision, but he felt there was no other course he could take. Even Sauron was not evil in the start, but was drawn but the chance of power Melkor offered him.

Thank you everyone for replying. You all make very good points.
There are at least two sides to everything. One perspective and the other, whatever we call them good or bad, right or wrong, black or white. In Tolkien's work and in most epic tales (Star Wars etc.) choosing evil is to choose the easy road. You get cookies on that road - with great frosting - to go along with vikingmaiden. The Dark side is tempting and the Light side must endure all the hardship and despair. Imagine listening to Galadriel's words about the quest that is most likely doomed to fail, imagine standing before Saruman in all his might and wisdom and having the chance to join the winning team. Wouldn't it be temping? Saruman, a mighty wizard, who no one would believe to stray to the dark side. You could see the immediate power right there, all you had to do was to reach out for it and presto! you would have the power to change things! And the more power you got, the more you could change and shape in accordance with your own ideas and perceptions of the world...


Yes, the values of friendship, selfishness and compassion. Tolkien teaches us not to give up and of the importance of hope. I think most people can relate to the temptation to have more power, but also to sacrificing oneself for another.
But the way "evil" is always depicted as pathetic and slightly silly... or just wrong or pitiful in most fiction... I must object to that.. (and I might elaborate on this later... it's past the time where my brain works properly...)

To return to the beginning of this post.
"With great power comes great responsability" (sorry to quote...err.. Spiderman, didn't mean to). The question is, can one administer this new power - and where does the power come from?
"In place of a Dark Lord, you would have a Queen, not dark, but beautiful and terrible as the dawn, treacherous as the Sea, stronger than the foundations of the Earth. All shall love me and despair!"
With power comes the possibility of dominion over others, most likely those who don't share the same beliefs as the sovereign. And chances are, we might end up with a new dictator...

But we are drawn to the Dark Side. Angrod Alcarin started a topic on people being fascinated with evil and horror, which may be parallel to this one (it is in the Silmarillion discussion).
We have parts of good and evil in us, and our concepts of right and wrong determines whether they be good or evil.

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That's a good point. Often times evil does have a sort of a fascination for some. Perhaps because it is an enigma. There is mystery in darkness. You never know what lies there. Some people are drawn to the unknown and the fear it causes. I think that fear is part of the power of evil. Fear is a very powerful weapon. It can do horrific things to a person. If you can control someon's fears, you can control them. I guess fear tactics can also be used for good though, as in a mother scaring their child away from doing dangerous things or somethign of that sort. The point being that fear is a powerful weapon, ally, and enemy and can be deadly when used for the wrong purposes.
One thing I don't understand about why people turn to evil: Yes, there is power. Complete powere even sometimes. But do they think that there will be no repercussions, no consequences for what they have done? Think about it. In every adventure story we read, good comes out on top in the end, and evil is punished. Though Evil may win some of the smaller battles, ultimately the the war is won by Good. And though evil may not be punished on this earth, (not to bring religion into this), but they have to know that if they are not punished in this life, they will be punished in the next. The trouble is that people (characters) do not think about the consequences when they decide to become evil. They see only the benefits that will come of it.
There is more that I would like to say, but I trust that this thread will be continued for awile, so I'm sure I can post it later.
~T.T

People don't turn evil on purpose - it is still my conviction. They might stray from the path which is commonly believed to be "the right" because need forces them. Fear, however, plays a crucial part in this. Fear is usually about the unknown or of loosing control. We fear what we don't know or what we don't know how to handle. That might cause us to act against our beliefs and values. That fear can be fear of loosing those we love (mmm yeah, I'm referring to Darth Anakin once again....sorry) - but when do the actions become "evil"? We can do evil things even without percieving them as evil ourselves...

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Actually, I think the Darth Vader and Anakin is a very good thing to use for comparison, because there is such a fine line there between evil and good. Anakin initially turns to the Dark Side because of his love for Padme, because he wants to stop her from dying. But soon he becomes too deeply immersed in shadow. He is not himself. This reminds me very much of Frodo and the Ring. The Ring comsumed Frodo just as the Dark forces consumed Anakin, or at least something very similar. This leads us to another factor: how far does evil need to go to win you? It seems to me that often times, all evil needs is one little taste, one little fault, one little fear, and it claims you, gradually possessing you until you become nothing more than one of the many shadows evil controls.
Another interesting point, Love. People traditionally associate love with good and happiness, btu cannot love also drive people to evi? (again, Anakin/Padme is a good example) Something to ponder...........

Thank you for replying and welcome back to the thread T.T.

In my opinion the very fine line between good and evil, is what makes the example so brilliant and real. As I have tried to advocate in my earlier posts, I don't see a thick border line seperating the lands of good and evil. It is merely a shadow land, a blurred line that moves all the time according to the person's intentions, actions and will.
However, I do agree that the Star Wars example may not be so appropriate here, especially because I have only watched the movie once, so I might get the whole thing wrong... but in my understanding Anakin is driven through his love for Padme and his desperate attempt to save her is everthing that matters to him. I believe he is aware that he is stepping on the line when he excepts the offer from whateverheiscalled to use the Dark Force, but what does it matter that it may be wrong to the world, when only Padme makes up his whole universe. For him there must be nothing else but her, therefore saving her becomes his only purpose in life. He does only what he feels he has to do to save her, and how can that ever be a wrong choice?
I can't help think of Saruman again.. I don't believe greed was all that drove him to take on the Many Colors, as I have also argued earlier, I'm sure his first intentions were to fight Sauron.
Also allow me to be a little deviant here. Aragorn and his love for Arwen. Imagine him joining forces with the Dark Lord if only that could save her. I know that Aragorn was too aware of his responsability, being the Heir of Isildur, to ever consider that, but think about it as a thought experiment.

I disagree with you on the matter of evil trying to win you. Well, that's how they picture the conflict in the movies, but again I believe "evil" is a choice as much as "good" is a choice. Or actually I don't believe we are born good or evil, but rather that our choices and intentions are weighed by others so they determine whether our actions should be labelled good or evil.
Perhaps it makes more sense if we talk about right and wrong. I know I can choose both, but sometimes what seems the right for me to do, will cause a lot of trouble to others, meaning they would consider it a bad choice. I have both options... Evil can not "win" me in that sense. I may be considered "evil" by the choices I make. But I have a potential for both. Evil is within me as well as good is.
I know many may disagree with me here, and I welcome any new thoughts, ideas and comments.



EDIT: Goodness, why didn't anyone point out my awful typos and missing words *gasp* I've tried to make it up as best as I could....

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*cracks knuckles* *places fingers on keyboard* *gets ready to have it out*
I think that the first initial step towards evil is the choice. The first step down the "evil path". But I also think that after you have taken that step, evil has a chance to draw you in further. As evil leads you down that path, you are lead to make more and more bad decisions. Again, I must draw the comparison to the Ring. The Ring is the embodiment of several supposedly evil qualities. All the person has to do is give in to their temptation, their greed, their passing fancy, and the Ring starts to gain a hold on them. A lot of people talk about the Ring as though it were a very addictive drug. Once you've had it once, you can't seem to stop. Until it has control over the addict's life. Causing them to make wrong choices, to do crazy things that they would never normally do. (i.e. Frodo telling Sam, the person he loves more than anything, to leave him.) (I know it never happened in the books, but it is useful for my point.) I believe that evil also posesses these qualities.
However, I also believe that people can turn around on the evil path. That people can fight the pull of evil and make good choices again. I think that evil has a sort of lure, a fascination for all of us. And then there is the fact that the evil road is often the easier one. But as people, we can choose to take a better road, or even choose to turn around on the evil road. An interesting question though, what drives people away from the evil road, and what prompt people to stay away from it in the first place?
The idea of Aragorn joining forces with Sauron to save Arwen is a very interesting one. One I had never considered before. Assuming that this had happened (and we all know it would never have), I think that the thing evil is praying on here is fear. Fear of losing the one you love. Fear of being lonely. Fear of never having love.
I think that the line there between good and evil is often fine or blurry is because people commit evil deeds with good intentions. So where to classify them? Good or Evil? They set out to do good, there was good in their hearts, and yet, what they did was so bad and so wrong that how could they be otherwise than evil? It is confusing at times.
Choices. This is really big. I think I am going to have to quote something from the HP books right now, so if you absolutely hate HP, please excuse me. but at the end of the first book, Harry is concerned because the Sorting Hat wanted to put him in Slytherin (again, please bear with me if you have never read HP), although he was put in Gryffindor. Dumbledore asks Harry why the hat put him in Gryffindor. Harry says "Because I asked it too." Dumbledore then proceeds to make a speech centered on the phrase "It is our choices in life that make us who we really are." I do believe this. People are defined by the choices they make in life. But when life gets confusing, when people are befuddled and bewitched, when dark looks like light and light looks like dark, how can we blame people for making the wrong choice? I'm not saying that's true in all cases, but in many, it is merely a confusion about what is right and what is wrong, a failure to see. <- Again there is the metaphor of dark and light. In the dark you cannot see but in the light you can. I'm not sure how that's relevant, but I thought I'd toss it in anyway.
I think I have made a ridiculously long enough post for now. If anyone actually read shtat whole thing, I applaud you. Thank you.

But what exactly is defined as bad or good? I think it all depends on what "side" we're on. It's almost like a never ending story. You don't want to be considered bad, so you tell yourself that you're on the good side. Well then, what about the people you deem the bad side? They could be telling themselves that they are the good side instead. It all depends on our morals and beliefs. If you believe you are doing something good then you are at the right, but if you know you are doing something wrong you are at the wrong.
Enough befuddling myself...
I think it was Eä who mentioned the fact that we are not born good or bad. It is our choices in life that lead us to either side. However I do think that we can also be led astray without even knowing it. Grima Wormtongue was once a good man, but he was led astray by many promises that were not even kept. This brings up the point that as humans we are extremely susceptable to greed and lust. When we want something that badly we will do anything we can to get it. Sometimes we are so blinded by that which we want we don't even realise where our lust and greed is leading us.
The subject of good and bad is used so much and abused so much. People may not realise it, but the mechanics of characterising good and bad people is hard. We can not justly deem people good or bad without knowing them and the things we have done. If we do not take these things into account [like I have seen in many theads concerning some of our beloved LotR characters] we may unjustly stereotype someone.

I'm out of ideas for now, but I do want to apologise for somewhat barging in on this wonderful discussion. I just sort of out right stated a few of my opinions.

Always happy to read your opinions Larael. Those were all very good points.

I have somtimeing interesting here that was e-mailed to me that I think is very relevant to this topic.

In black you can read the word GOOD,

in white the word EVIL(inside each black letter is a white letter).

It's all very physiological too,

because it visualize the concept that good can't exist without evil (or the absence of good is evil ).


^ The thing above was what accompanied the image. I also think it's interesting because evil is shown in whote and good in black. That's something we don't see very often.

*applauds* Thank you both for your replies, and apologies for my late answer. Life for me these days is quite busy, and I know whenever I enter this discussion, I get stuck here for a while, because it requires quite some mind work to keep up here, lol.
Larael, welcome to the thread, I, too, really appreciate your opinions and input on the subject. The more different perspectives we get, the more interesting the discussion.

T.T, we are almost finding a common ground here. I agree overall with your previous post (Oct. 1).
Committing "evil deeds with good intentions", very nicely put. And yes, the choices certainly shape us as well as we create our lives through the choices we make. (and quoting HP isn't any different from referring Star wars, which I am guilty in, lol)

Larael, the definitions of good and bad may definately vary according to the perspective, so much depends on the eyes that see, and from which side you view it. Who is a bad person? When do we do evil deeds? And from which perspective are they considered evil? Who judges?
I believe it comes down to right and wrong, because then we can talk about morals and values, even faith and beliefs. That way we get some frames to help us divide the world and categorize things. Right and wrong... if someone does something to me unrightly, can I mend it by doing something similar to him? I was trying to find an example from Tolkien, but my brain failed to support that idea...

(T.T what you said about the Ring is very true. Actually I got so excited about your ideas that I don't think I can say anything about it here.... I might post in the What does the one Ring Represent thread to elaborate. I will give you the credit you deserve, and perhaps you would even like to join me there!)

And by the way, I see Good before Evil in the drawing!! I wonder if it says something about me as a person, or whether it would be different if Evil was written in white and Good in black!!

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Banner credit: Shadowcat & Nurrantiel Mashiara

I see Good before Evil in it too! I was wondering just that, if that said something about me as a person, or if it was just because Good was darker. I'm inclined to think it the latter, not because I'm evil or anything, but because it just seems more probably to me. Very interesting though, at least I think so.

I agree that choices/actions are what shapes our lives, what makes each person who they are, but what we really have to look at is the motives behind the choice/action. As I said, a person may commit an act of evil without that being their intention, having good intentions themselves. Another thing is, a person may also commit an act of good with evil intentions. They may be kind to a person merely for the sake of getting closer to them, to obtain what the person has that the bad person desires. It works both ways. That's the only reason I don't necessarily believe that actions are the only thing that matter in the decision of good and evil.

I think that there is probably some good and some evil in everybody, but as we grow and experience more of life, the evil parts of some people grow and start to overshadow the good parts. Sometimes evi can even possess an entire being. I think most of us are born with the instinct of good (i.e. your conscience), but, as I said, if something comes along to tempt us (i.e. the Ring), it can bring out the evil side in us.

I am honored that you like my thoughts so much. Of course I don't mind if you post them elsewhere, and I thnk I will join you in the other thread presently.

By the way, I like your new banner.

I haven't posted here for a while, as I couldn't bring any new thoughts to the discussion. I generally agree with your post, and especially the above quoted part. I have not abandoned the thread and I hope to see more people joining in here.


Thank you... and I see you also posted in the other thread!!


Thank you. The credit goes to Dhodrimme (username: SI~Dhodrimme)

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>>Be the change you wish to see in the world<<



Banner credit: Shadowcat & Nurrantiel Mashiara

I'm glad we agree Ea, or mostly agree anyway. I've noticed that this thread has been somewhat dead as of late. Ithink you're right, we need to get some other people involved. So far, I've heard a lot about where you have to stand on the Good vs. Evil topic, but I'm interested to hear what other people have to say.