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PostPosted: February 23rd, 2007, 12:56 pm 
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Aerandir wrote:
EonwesBestMate wrote:
Werent an official Fighting force? I highly doubt this or they wouldnt have been half as effective as they were. Militiamen, even with suprise will not have been able to scatter a force fo haradrim. Also, a steward fo Gondor I believe one of th eTurins, decreed them a formal military organisation during the Third Age. Also, It is likely they did patrol. However Sauron, having command of an emourmous army will have been unlikely to fritter away strength on small bands of soldiers and that will have been the tactical thought, as he will have been focusing more on th ebigger plan to destroy gondor. Also, In arnor there were a reduced level of evil things. Orcs were not as common in Arnor as they would have been and all evil men had been destroyed in Arnor.Threfore they wil have had less practise and aslo, Gondors force of rangers wil have had its worst soldiers pared from it during fighting. So to dismiss the Ithilien rangers as nothing compared t their northern kin is to say somewhat irrational. as well as untrue in a manner of speaking.


I didn't mean "not an official fighting force" as in they were militia, but that the Rangers themselves were not a separate group in Gondor's military. They were simply men chosen from the ranks of normal soldiers who knew Ithilien well, and were wood-wise and skilled warriors. I also did not say that they are nothing compared to their northern kin--please don't put words in my mouth like that. What I said was that the Dunedain of Arnor were tougher, better soldiers, on average.

Also, who's to say that all of the evil men were gone from Arnor? That's very presumptuous of you.

Okay, I have to get off the comp for now, but I'll post more later. I plan on decimating your post. :vampire:

EDIT: I'm back. :D

Now, when you say Sauron would be unlikely to react to the raids, you're forgetting the chapters in TTT where Faramir talks about it--he said that soon the entire area would be swarming with orcs and servants of Sauron, searching for the Rangers to destroy them. Obviously, he did care, so that argument of yours is now null.

I went through the timeline in the back of RotK, and it didn't mention anything about the Rangers being declared an official fighting force. I looked them up on the Encyclopaedia of Arda, and again, there was nothing that declared them an official fighting force. It simply called them a force of men chosen from the ranks of Gondor's army for raids across the River into Ithilien, etc. It did not label them as their own branch, and those guys who do EoA have looked over like all of Tolkien's writings, so they should know.

So I still have my argument--on average, due to constant practice (they're on the job all the time), the Dunedain of Arnor would be tougher, more skilled, and better than the Rangers of Ithilien. :)



I will not be defeated but I will compromise to end this idiotic war of words. First all the evil men were gone. it says in the fellowship of th ering that all th e evil men were slain in the wars in th enorth. Thats settled. Also, I spose official figthing force is less of a correct term as combat specialists. I think that a steward recognised the necessaty fo such men and would have made them an unofficial branch of Gondors army but stll not one that woul dbe disbanded at the ned fo a war, but rather used as scouts still. So they are to an extent their own branch as they are allowed some degree of autonomy.
Also Sauron in a tactical sense DID NOT care. Your arguemtn to say at best is flimsy. It doesnt imply that Sauron himself gave the order ot pursue the rangers exclusively. I assume that would be asquad level things, with orc captains goings after companies due to impetuousness. sauron was more interested in the tactical big picture, and underestimated the small, which is why he left the shire alone for so long. Also, because the areas around ithilien and osgilliath were key in a swift assualt on Minas Tirith, Sauron would adavnce troops towards them anyway, and if rangers were there, would try to kill them to weaken gondors garrison altogether. It DOES NOT say that the rangers were marked exclusively.
Also, lets think, The rangers of th enorth lived for several times longer th teh rangers of Ithilien and also, there had not been a major war in a while. BUt also think bout it, take an ithilien ranger up north n hed be lost . Likewise with a northern ranger. Its all about areas of combat.

BTW your post did not decimate mine. If this is the best uhave to offer, in all reality I maa bit disappointed. BUt notwithstanding this, This club is for others as well as ourselves and i feel this debate raging has caused other sto lose interest. If u wish to continue this on an instant messenger service, Be my guest. Just PM me ur email addy and well settle this in a decisive fashion away from the club.

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PostPosted: February 23rd, 2007, 1:17 pm 
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EonwesBestMate wrote:
I will not be defeated but I will compromise to end this idiotic war of words. First all the evil men were gone. it says in the fellowship of th ering that all th e evil men were slain in the wars in th enorth. Thats settled. Also, I spose official figthing force is less of a correct term as combat specialists. I think that a steward recognised the necessaty fo such men and would have made them an unofficial branch of Gondors army but stll not one that woul dbe disbanded at the ned fo a war, but rather used as scouts still. So they are to an extent their own branch as they are allowed some degree of autonomy.
Also Sauron in a tactical sense DID NOT care. Your arguemtn to say at best is flimsy. It doesnt imply that Sauron himself gave the order ot pursue the rangers exclusively. I assume that would be asquad level things, with orc captains goings after companies due to impetuousness. sauron was more interested in the tactical big picture, and underestimated the small, which is why he left the shire alone for so long. Also, because the areas around ithilien and osgilliath were key in a swift assualt on Minas Tirith, Sauron would adavnce troops towards them anyway, and if rangers were there, would try to kill them to weaken gondors garrison altogether. It DOES NOT say that the rangers were marked exclusively.
Also, lets think, The rangers of th enorth lived for several times longer th teh rangers of Ithilien and also, there had not been a major war in a while. BUt also think bout it, take an ithilien ranger up north n hed be lost . Likewise with a northern ranger. Its all about areas of combat.

BTW your post did not decimate mine. If this is the best uhave to offer, in all reality I maa bit disappointed. BUt notwithstanding this, This club is for others as well as ourselves and i feel this debate raging has caused other sto lose interest. If u wish to continue this on an instant messenger service, Be my guest. Just PM me ur email addy and well settle this in a decisive fashion away from the club.


What's the point in settling it away from the club? It's a discussion, on topic, isn't it? It's not exclusively for us--if Lady Raine or someone else wants to put in their opinion, they're welcome to.

So...first of all, I have no recollection of it saying anywhere in FotR that "all of the evil men were gone." If you can back that up with a reference, I will look it up, and then I would accept that as proof.

To back up my statement that the Rangers themselves were pursued, here's this quote:

The Two Towers, Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit, page 647 wrote:
"Sleep while you may," said Mablung. "But the Captain will return, if he is nhurt; and when he comes we shall depart swiftly. We shall be pursued as soon as news of our deed reaches the Enemy, and that will not be long."


So that proves that they would be specifically marked. Your argument is still null.

I looked online, and nowhere does it say that the Rangers were an official fighting force (not in the Appendices, either)--it only mentions that they were "formed" of Men who knew the ways of Ithilien, were woodwise, etc., around the year TA 2900. And not even that much is mentioned in the book--in the book, it simply mentions that most of the folk of Ithilien left, and soon there were few people there, save the Rangers. That's one of the two times they are mentioned in the Appendices--both times it has to do with renewed enemy activity in Ithilien, and thus Ranger raids in retaliation.

As for Rangers of the North--while we never hear about Ithilien Rangers in Arnor, we do have an instance of Arnorian Dunedain in the South--the War of the Ring. The Rangers did fine. Halbarad died, and maybe others as well, but at least some survived (until the Battle of the Morannon, at least). While they might not know their way around Ithilien as well as the Rangers of Ithilien, that's to be expected. They could find their way, though, since Ithilien isn't all that big. However, a Ranger of Ithilien in Arnor would probably get lost much faster, since most of Arnor is unpopulated wilderness, in which it would be very easy to get lost if you don't have someone who knows the way.

----------

But since we're not doing much to convince each other that the Rangers of the North/South are better, we can move onto another topic. Any suggestions?

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PostPosted: February 24th, 2007, 2:08 am 
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Wow, that was an interesting... discussion. No need to change the topic. Carry on. I want to see blood. Kidding. I have no ideas.

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PostPosted: February 24th, 2007, 5:32 am 
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Aerandir wrote:
EonwesBestMate wrote:
I will not be defeated but I will compromise to end this idiotic war of words. First all the evil men were gone. it says in the fellowship of th ering that all th e evil men were slain in the wars in th enorth. Thats settled. Also, I spose official figthing force is less of a correct term as combat specialists. I think that a steward recognised the necessaty fo such men and would have made them an unofficial branch of Gondors army but stll not one that woul dbe disbanded at the ned fo a war, but rather used as scouts still. So they are to an extent their own branch as they are allowed some degree of autonomy.
Also Sauron in a tactical sense DID NOT care. Your arguemtn to say at best is flimsy. It doesnt imply that Sauron himself gave the order ot pursue the rangers exclusively. I assume that would be asquad level things, with orc captains goings after companies due to impetuousness. sauron was more interested in the tactical big picture, and underestimated the small, which is why he left the shire alone for so long. Also, because the areas around ithilien and osgilliath were key in a swift assualt on Minas Tirith, Sauron would adavnce troops towards them anyway, and if rangers were there, would try to kill them to weaken gondors garrison altogether. It DOES NOT say that the rangers were marked exclusively.
Also, lets think, The rangers of th enorth lived for several times longer th teh rangers of Ithilien and also, there had not been a major war in a while. BUt also think bout it, take an ithilien ranger up north n hed be lost . Likewise with a northern ranger. Its all about areas of combat.

BTW your post did not decimate mine. If this is the best uhave to offer, in all reality I maa bit disappointed. BUt notwithstanding this, This club is for others as well as ourselves and i feel this debate raging has caused other sto lose interest. If u wish to continue this on an instant messenger service, Be my guest. Just PM me ur email addy and well settle this in a decisive fashion away from the club.


What's the point in settling it away from the club? It's a discussion, on topic, isn't it? It's not exclusively for us--if Lady Raine or someone else wants to put in their opinion, they're welcome to.

So...first of all, I have no recollection of it saying anywhere in FotR that "all of the evil men were gone." If you can back that up with a reference, I will look it up, and then I would accept that as proof.

To back up my statement that the Rangers themselves were pursued, here's this quote:

The Two Towers, Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit, page 647 wrote:
"Sleep while you may," said Mablung. "But the Captain will return, if he is nhurt; and when he comes we shall depart swiftly. We shall be pursued as soon as news of our deed reaches the Enemy, and that will not be long."


So that proves that they would be specifically marked. Your argument is still null.

I looked online, and nowhere does it say that the Rangers were an official fighting force (not in the Appendices, either)--it only mentions that they were "formed" of Men who knew the ways of Ithilien, were woodwise, etc., around the year TA 2900. And not even that much is mentioned in the book--in the book, it simply mentions that most of the folk of Ithilien left, and soon there were few people there, save the Rangers. That's one of the two times they are mentioned in the Appendices--both times it has to do with renewed enemy activity in Ithilien, and thus Ranger raids in retaliation.

As for Rangers of the North--while we never hear about Ithilien Rangers in Arnor, we do have an instance of Arnorian Dunedain in the South--the War of the Ring. The Rangers did fine. Halbarad died, and maybe others as well, but at least some survived (until the Battle of the Morannon, at least). While they might not know their way around Ithilien as well as the Rangers of Ithilien, that's to be expected. They could find their way, though, since Ithilien isn't all that big. However, a Ranger of Ithilien in Arnor would probably get lost much faster, since most of Arnor is unpopulated wilderness, in which it would be very easy to get lost if you don't have someone who knows the way.

----------

But since we're not doing much to convince each other that the Rangers of the North/South are better, we can move onto another topic. Any suggestions?


Fine then, this is "ad triarios rediisse."
Evil men Gone- Fellowship pg 265 flght to th eford
"Men once dwelt here.......But they were all destroyed in the wars that brought the north kingdoms to the end." So that shows all evil men were gone. Aragorn says so.
Also rangers officiality-READ MY LAST POST. i ey were unofficial, but COMBAT SPECIALISTS. Therefore, the stewards and soldiers would have trusted their judgement and will have been kept as a border garisson, not only for retaliation. Nowhere in the appendices does it no say that the rangers of thilien were not permannetly stationed there. Thats why they had henneth annun as a hieout and they had many other places where they could take refuge from. If they had been temporary I doubt the stewards woul dhave bothered if the rangers were a temporary force.

Rangers being marked- again, read my last post.urs says that the enemy will attack right? BUt it doesnt say where the order comes from. If sauron respected enemy forces he will have put screening forces in place as an example, pellenor fields to guards aginst flank attacks.If he respected or deemed th erangers a tactical threat he will have detached troops to destroy them. But he knew they were to weak to do damage and a Lion does not bother with a gnat, so sauron did not detach any soldiers form the main host, as that i the thing the rangers wanted.So in your words, your argument is null.Next time, please try to think of the tactical implications before you try to defeat my arguments.Those pursuits were on a squad level, not an army level.

Rangers of north in south- Where did they walk on th eway to morannon? let me think Oh yeah on an enourmous road running through. They hardly wandered around ithilien. the only other places tehy went they followed aragorn who knew the area as thorongil. So aragorn may be th eexception
.
So aerandir. If youwanted an arguemnt. You have gotten one.

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PostPosted: February 25th, 2007, 9:07 am 
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Okay, your post was really hard to understand, and even now I'm not sure I have it figured out. Next time please take a minute or two to try and reduce the typos.

EonwesBestMate wrote:
Fine then, this is "ad triarios rediisse."
Evil men Gone- Fellowship pg 265 flght to th eford
"Men once dwelt here.......But they were all destroyed in the wars that brought the north kingdoms to the end." So that shows all evil men were gone. Aragorn says so. Yeah, but that was for that specific area. Sam's question pertained to the area they were in, which was near the Troll-fells. It was hardly encompassing all of Arnor. Aragorn's answer did not encompass all of Arnor, either. My point still stands.
Also rangers officiality-READ MY LAST POST. i ey were unofficial, but COMBAT SPECIALISTS. Therefore, the stewards and soldiers would have trusted their judgement and will have been kept as a border garisson, not only for retaliation. Nowhere in the appendices does it no say that the rangers of thilien were not permannetly stationed there. Thats why they had henneth annun as a hieout and they had many other places where they could take refuge from. If they had been temporary I doubt the stewards woul dhave bothered if the rangers were a temporary force. In my opinion, the term "Rangers" was used for whoever was sent to ambush Sauron's troops in Ithilien at whatever time. It was not for a specific group of men, it was for a changing group.
Rangers being marked- again, read my last post.urs says that the enemy will attack right? BUt it doesnt say where the order comes from. If sauron respected enemy forces he will have put screening forces in place as an example, pellenor fields to guards aginst flank attacks.If he respected or deemed th erangers a tactical threat he will have detached troops to destroy them. But he knew they were to weak to do damage and a Lion does not bother with a gnat, so sauron did not detach any soldiers form the main host, as that i the thing the rangers wanted.So in your words, your argument is null.Next time, please try to think of the tactical implications before you try to defeat my arguments.Those pursuits were on a squad level, not an army level. Squad level? Are you kidding? Faramir had over 200 men with him after the battle. That's hardly a squad. They destroyed a force of Sauron's soldiers to the last man. A nearly-equal force. That is hardly squad-level warfare. That's a sizeable ambush. And note: in the quote that I mentioned in my last post, it says that The Enemy will pursue them. Now, it is likely that he would just send soldiers, or maybe even that some underling would send the order, but that's not what Tolkien says. What he says is that the Enemy will pursue him. So....if we go in the strictest sense, we do know where the order comes from.
Rangers of north in south- Where did they walk on th eway to morannon? let me think Oh yeah on an enourmous road running through. They hardly wandered around ithilien. the only other places tehy went they followed aragorn who knew the area as thorongil. So aragorn may be th eexception What I was referring to was their capabilities in battle, because the Rangers of Ithilien would be more used to fighting as a small part of the whole, unlike the Dunedain of Arnor, who are used to fighting solo. When I said they did fine, I was meaning that they fought and survived perfectly well.

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PostPosted: February 25th, 2007, 2:02 pm 
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Aerandir wrote:
Okay, your post was really hard to understand, and even now I'm not sure I have it figured out. Next time please take a minute or two to try and reduce the typos.

EonwesBestMate wrote:
Fine then, this is "ad triarios rediisse."
Evil men Gone- Fellowship pg 265 flght to th eford
"Men once dwelt here.......But they were all destroyed in the wars that brought the north kingdoms to the end." So that shows all evil men were gone. Aragorn says so. Yeah, but that was for that specific area. Sam's question pertained to the area they were in, which was near the Troll-fells. It was hardly encompassing all of Arnor. Aragorn's answer did not encompass all of Arnor, either. My point still stands.
Well, that area was old Rhudaur and all the evil men who took rhudaur during the northern wars will have been in the final battle, and thus annihilated. If none survived to defend the evil mens new land, then all of them must have been destroyed at the battle of fornost.Also rangers officiality-READ MY LAST POST. i ey were unofficial, but COMBAT SPECIALISTS. Therefore, the stewards and soldiers would have trusted their judgement and will have been kept as a border garisson, not only for retaliation. Nowhere in the appendices does it no say that the rangers of thilien were not permannetly stationed there. Thats why they had henneth annun as a hieout and they had many other places where they could take refuge from. If they had been temporary I doubt the stewards woul dhave bothered if the rangers were a temporary force. In my opinion, the term "Rangers" was used for whoever was sent to ambush Sauron's troops in Ithilien at whatever time. It was not for a specific group of men, it was for a changing group.
Well this seems a bit hypocritical. as your next point in my opinion nitpicks at a technical detail so for you to make an opinion rather than use tolkiens description is really rich.Also, to call a gondorian archer whose lived in the city all his life and knows nothing of woodcraft or the woods,whose been seconded for an ambush, to call him a ranger is defeating the point of an honourific title such as ranger.
Rangers being marked- again, read my last post.urs says that the enemy will attack right? BUt it doesnt say where the order comes from. If sauron respected enemy forces he will have put screening forces in place as an example, pellenor fields to guards aginst flank attacks.If he respected or deemed th erangers a tactical threat he will have detached troops to destroy them. But he knew they were to weak to do damage and a Lion does not bother with a gnat, so sauron did not detach any soldiers form the main host, as that i the thing the rangers wanted.So in your words, your argument is null.Next time, please try to think of the tactical implications before you try to defeat my arguments.Those pursuits were on a squad level, not an army level. Squad level? Are you kidding? Faramir had over 200 men with him after the battle. That's hardly a squad. They destroyed a force of Sauron's soldiers to the last man. A nearly-equal force. That is hardly squad-level warfare. That's a sizeable ambush. And note: in the quote that I mentioned in my last post, it says that The Enemy will pursue them. Now, it is likely that he would just send soldiers, or maybe even that some underling would send the order, but that's not what Tolkien says. What he says is that the Enemy will pursue him. So....if we go in the strictest sense, we do know where the order comes from.
Also, please READ MY POSTS CORRECTLY.I did not mean faramir at all, I meant the foces of mordor. When u have an army of hundreds of thousands, 200 is a rather small, paltry number. That can be interpreted as squad level, as a squad is really a word for describing a number of men , not any fixed number. Also, the enemy is a word for describing also the forces of the enemy, for what else would you call them? It could ceom from an orc commander who is also an enemy so there is a possibilty that it was a "squas "level command.
Rangers of north in south- Where did they walk on th eway to morannon? let me think Oh yeah on an enourmous road running through. They hardly wandered around ithilien. the only other places tehy went they followed aragorn who knew the area as thorongil. So aragorn may be th eexception What I was referring to was their capabilities in battle, because the Rangers of Ithilien would be more used to fighting as a small part of the whole, unlike the Dunedain of Arnor, who are used to fighting solo. When I said they did fine, I was meaning that they fought and survived perfectly well.[

I must say, thats not true. In a previous post, you were referring to their skill in finding themselves in places.so please answer each point correctly please. Also, individual fighters in a war may be great, but its soldiers that can fight as part of a whole that are better warriors. Tactical greats such as Hannibal and Sun Tzu have said this over and over again, and they know their business.

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PostPosted: February 25th, 2007, 2:15 pm 
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First of all, I want to thank you for reducing the typos. Thanks. :)

EonwesBestMate wrote:
Aerandir wrote:
Okay, your post was really hard to understand, and even now I'm not sure I have it figured out. Next time please take a minute or two to try and reduce the typos.

EonwesBestMate wrote:
Fine then, this is "ad triarios rediisse."
Evil men Gone- Fellowship pg 265 flght to th eford
"Men once dwelt here.......But they were all destroyed in the wars that brought the north kingdoms to the end." So that shows all evil men were gone. Aragorn says so. Yeah, but that was for that specific area. Sam's question pertained to the area they were in, which was near the Troll-fells. It was hardly encompassing all of Arnor. Aragorn's answer did not encompass all of Arnor, either. My point still stands.
Well, that area was old Rhudaur and all the evil men who took rhudaur during the northern wars will have been in the final battle, and thus annihilated. If none survived to defend the evil mens new land, then all of them must have been destroyed at the battle of fornost. But how do you know all of the evil men were present? There would still have been settlements--young children wouldn't have gone into battle. They would have been raised still as evil men, most likely. So, the civilization as a whole died, but there would still be evilm men with evil intentions who also wandered in the wilderness.Also rangers officiality-READ MY LAST POST. i ey were unofficial, but COMBAT SPECIALISTS. Therefore, the stewards and soldiers would have trusted their judgement and will have been kept as a border garisson, not only for retaliation. Nowhere in the appendices does it no say that the rangers of thilien were not permannetly stationed there. Thats why they had henneth annun as a hieout and they had many other places where they could take refuge from. If they had been temporary I doubt the stewards woul dhave bothered if the rangers were a temporary force. In my opinion, the term "Rangers" was used for whoever was sent to ambush Sauron's troops in Ithilien at whatever time. It was not for a specific group of men, it was for a changing group.
Well this seems a bit hypocritical. as your next point in my opinion nitpicks at a technical detail so for you to make an opinion rather than use tolkiens description is really rich.Also, to call a gondorian archer whose lived in the city all his life and knows nothing of woodcraft or the woods,whose been seconded for an ambush, to call him a ranger is defeating the point of an honourific title such as ranger. .....I don't understand what you're trying to say here, sorryRangers being marked- again, read my last post.urs says that the enemy will attack right? BUt it doesnt say where the order comes from. If sauron respected enemy forces he will have put screening forces in place as an example, pellenor fields to guards aginst flank attacks.If he respected or deemed th erangers a tactical threat he will have detached troops to destroy them. But he knew they were to weak to do damage and a Lion does not bother with a gnat, so sauron did not detach any soldiers form the main host, as that i the thing the rangers wanted.So in your words, your argument is null.Next time, please try to think of the tactical implications before you try to defeat my arguments.Those pursuits were on a squad level, not an army level. Squad level? Are you kidding? Faramir had over 200 men with him after the battle. That's hardly a squad. They destroyed a force of Sauron's soldiers to the last man. A nearly-equal force. That is hardly squad-level warfare. That's a sizeable ambush. And note: in the quote that I mentioned in my last post, it says that The Enemy will pursue them. Now, it is likely that he would just send soldiers, or maybe even that some underling would send the order, but that's not what Tolkien says. What he says is that the Enemy will pursue him. So....if we go in the strictest sense, we do know where the order comes from.
Also, please READ MY POSTS CORRECTLY.I did not mean faramir at all, I meant the foces of mordor. When u have an army of hundreds of thousands, 200 is a rather small, paltry number. That can be interpreted as squad level, as a squad is really a word for describing a number of men , not any fixed number. Also, the enemy is a word for describing also the forces of the enemy, for what else would you call them? It could ceom from an orc commander who is also an enemy so there is a possibilty that it was a "squas "level command. Okay, I did misread that part of the post--I thought you meant that the warfare was on a squad level. As to that, then, I have no answer, but I will point out that when the book says the Enemy, with a capital letter, in ever instance it is referring to Sauron himself, as a single person--not to those under his command. Rangers of north in south- Where did they walk on th eway to morannon? let me think Oh yeah on an enourmous road running through. They hardly wandered around ithilien. the only other places tehy went they followed aragorn who knew the area as thorongil. So aragorn may be th eexception What I was referring to was their capabilities in battle, because the Rangers of Ithilien would be more used to fighting as a small part of the whole, unlike the Dunedain of Arnor, who are used to fighting solo. When I said they did fine, I was meaning that they fought and survived perfectly well.[

I must say, thats not true. In a previous post, you were referring to their skill in finding themselves in places.so please answer each point correctly please. Also, individual fighters in a war may be great, but its soldiers that can fight as part of a whole that are better warriors. Tactical greats such as Hannibal and Sun Tzu have said this over and over again, and they know their business.
I admit I said it in a confusing manner--the Rangers of the North still would probably not have a hard time finding their way in Ithilien, since it is a forested land. It has no mountains, it has no swamps, etc. It's basically just trees. Arnor has tons of things that look the same and would be easy enough to get lost in.

But regardless, the Dunedain of Arnor were used as leaders in the battles of the War of the Ring. They were playing the role of the King's chief knights, standing tall to lead on the lesser men (which does apply to the Rangers of Ithilien in this sense of the word....those men are not as directly descended from the Numenorians). They fought well, they led well. They were not common soldiers, the way the Rangers were. Actually, the Rangers of Ithilen would have had a rather difficult time in battle if, as you claim, they were a force specifically used for ambushes and such, considering that they couldn't simply vanish for that battle. This lends credence to the idea that they are just skilled men from Gondor's army, put together into a group and dubbed the Rangers, or something like that.

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PostPosted: February 25th, 2007, 2:37 pm 
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Aerandir wrote:
First of all, I want to thank you for reducing the typos. Thanks. :)

EonwesBestMate wrote:
Aerandir wrote:
Okay, your post was really hard to understand, and even now I'm not sure I have it figured out. Next time please take a minute or two to try and reduce the typos.

EonwesBestMate wrote:
Fine then, this is "ad triarios rediisse."
Evil men Gone- Fellowship pg 265 flght to th eford
"Men once dwelt here.......But they were all destroyed in the wars that brought the north kingdoms to the end." So that shows all evil men were gone. Aragorn says so. Yeah, but that was for that specific area. Sam's question pertained to the area they were in, which was near the Troll-fells. It was hardly encompassing all of Arnor. Aragorn's answer did not encompass all of Arnor, either. My point still stands.
Well, that area was old Rhudaur and all the evil men who took rhudaur during the northern wars will have been in the final battle, and thus annihilated. If none survived to defend the evil mens new land, then all of them must have been destroyed at the battle of fornost. But how do you know all of the evil men were present? There would still have been settlements--young children wouldn't have gone into battle. They would have been raised still as evil men, most likely. So, the civilization as a whole died, but there would still be evilm men with evil intentions who also wandered in the wilderness.I meant that if there were none there.I doubt that there were any of those men, as if there were any, they would have been all non combatents. so if they ( non combatents) disappeared form that rough geographical location as well the men who fought common sense dictates they either left the area or died.Any remnant would have died out soon possibly by more rangers scouting. End of story.

Also rangers officiality-READ MY LAST POST. i ey were unofficial, but COMBAT SPECIALISTS. Therefore, the stewards and soldiers would have trusted their judgement and will have been kept as a border garisson, not only for retaliation. Nowhere in the appendices does it no say that the rangers of thilien were not permannetly stationed there. Thats why they had henneth annun as a hieout and they had many other places where they could take refuge from. If they had been temporary I doubt the stewards woul dhave bothered if the rangers were a temporary force. In my opinion, the term "Rangers" was used for whoever was sent to ambush Sauron's troops in Ithilien at whatever time. It was not for a specific group of men, it was for a changing group.
Well this seems a bit hypocritical. as your next point in my opinion nitpicks at a technical detail so for you to make an opinion rather than use tolkiens description is really rich.Also, to call a gondorian archer whose lived in the city all his life and knows nothing of woodcraft or the woods,whose been seconded for an ambush, to call him a ranger is defeating the point of an honourific title such as ranger. .....I don't understand what you're trying to say here, sorry
To give a special title such as Ranger implies that that person has a skill or suitability in something,Like the Marines or the desert rats.Therefore you give men who are skilled inn woods and guerilla warfare such a title as well as the implication that they range ( hence the name) on the realms borders, as Guardians or sentrys.
Rangers being marked- again, read my last post.urs says that the enemy will attack right? BUt it doesnt say where the order comes from. If sauron respected enemy forces he will have put screening forces in place as an example, pellenor fields to guards aginst flank attacks.If he respected or deemed th erangers a tactical threat he will have detached troops to destroy them. But he knew they were to weak to do damage and a Lion does not bother with a gnat, so sauron did not detach any soldiers form the main host, as that i the thing the rangers wanted.So in your words, your argument is null.Next time, please try to think of the tactical implications before you try to defeat my arguments.Those pursuits were on a squad level, not an army level. Squad level? Are you kidding? Faramir had over 200 men with him after the battle. That's hardly a squad. They destroyed a force of Sauron's soldiers to the last man. A nearly-equal force. That is hardly squad-level warfare. That's a sizeable ambush. And note: in the quote that I mentioned in my last post, it says that The Enemy will pursue them. Now, it is likely that he would just send soldiers, or maybe even that some underling would send the order, but that's not what Tolkien says. What he says is that the Enemy will pursue him. So....if we go in the strictest sense, we do know where the order comes from.
Also, please READ MY POSTS CORRECTLY.I did not mean faramir at all, I meant the foces of mordor. When u have an army of hundreds of thousands, 200 is a rather small, paltry number. That can be interpreted as squad level, as a squad is really a word for describing a number of men , not any fixed number. Also, the enemy is a word for describing also the forces of the enemy, for what else would you call them? It could ceom from an orc commander who is also an enemy so there is a possibilty that it was a "squas "level command. Okay, I did misread that part of the post--I thought you meant that the warfare was on a squad level. As to that, then, I have no answer, but I will point out that when the book says the Enemy, with a capital letter, in ever instance it is referring to Sauron himself, as a single person--not to those under his command.
It was said by Mablung, who would use such a word to describe the forces under sauron as much as Sauron himself. So it could b a device used by tolkien to make the ranger seem more "real"
Rangers of north in south- Where did they walk on th eway to morannon? let me think Oh yeah on an enourmous road running through. They hardly wandered around ithilien. the only other places tehy went they followed aragorn who knew the area as thorongil. So aragorn may be th eexception What I was referring to was their capabilities in battle, because the Rangers of Ithilien would be more used to fighting as a small part of the whole, unlike the Dunedain of Arnor, who are used to fighting solo. When I said they did fine, I was meaning that they fought and survived perfectly well.[

I must say, thats not true. In a previous post, you were referring to their skill in finding themselves in places.so please answer each point correctly please. Also, individual fighters in a war may be great, but its soldiers that can fight as part of a whole that are better warriors. Tactical greats such as Hannibal and Sun Tzu have said this over and over again, and they know their business.
I admit I said it in a confusing manner--the Rangers of the North still would probably not have a hard time finding their way in Ithilien, since it is a forested land. It has no mountains, it has no swamps, etc. It's basically just trees. Arnor has tons of things that look the same and would be easy enough to get lost in.

But regardless, the Dunedain of Arnor were used as leaders in the battles of the War of the Ring. They were playing the role of the King's chief knights, standing tall to lead on the lesser men (which does apply to the Rangers of Ithilien in this sense of the word....those men are not as directly descended from the Numenorians). They fought well, they led well. They were not common soldiers, the way the Rangers were. Actually, the Rangers of Ithilen would have had a rather difficult time in battle if, as you claim, they were a force specifically used for ambushes and such, considering that they couldn't simply vanish for that battle. This lends credence to the idea that they are just skilled men from Gondor's army, put together into a group and dubbed the Rangers, or something like that.

I said that the Rangers were an arm of the gondorian militry, like the elven marchwards, to protect the borders of the realm. Also, to say that the leaders are more skilled than the soldiers in war and in fighting is not always true. Marcus Lucinius Crassus was a rubbish fighter an dhe led his men to destruction at Carrhae and he was ageneral.Sometimes teh common soldier knows more of soldiering than the man leading him.
As I said, I believe the title ranger to be an honourific, and not just a ragtag band of woodsmen thrown togther.

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PostPosted: February 25th, 2007, 3:55 pm 
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Well, they're not a ragtag band of woodmen, certainly. They are, as I see them, the cream of Gondor's army, with the exception of the Guards of the Citadel and the Knights of Dol Amroth. However, they themselves are still part of the conventional army--they just dress differently and get the cooler jobs, normally.

And as for the Dunedain of Arnor, I know that some leaders can be totally awful, but my point was that Tolkien never says (or implies) anything of the kind for the Dunedain. To all appearances, at least, they were good leaders. They were the best warriors. I have to get off the computer for now, but tommorrow I'll find you a quote to (help) illustrate my point.

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PostPosted: February 25th, 2007, 7:43 pm 
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Very well then. This "war" shall be continued tommorrow. Prepare yourself. Ill make this the debate of your life. I need sleep too. Also, Lady raine or anyone else, if you wish to post, please do ( and no betting on the winner of our debate lol :-D)

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PostPosted: February 25th, 2007, 9:37 pm 
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Oh darn, there goes my bet. *snaps fingers*

I've been watching this debate and waiting, trying to decide who will win out. :)

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PostPosted: February 26th, 2007, 4:52 am 
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Lol, Tar.

Okay, EBM--while these quotes don't prove anything by themselves, just remember that nothing like this is ever said about the Rangers of Ithilien. To all appearances, those are just like normal men of Gondor.

The Return of the King, Book One, Chapter II, The Passing of the Grey Company, page 759 wrote:
'They are a strange company, these newcomers,' said Gimli. 'Stout and lordly they are, and the Riders of Rohan look almost as boys beside them; for they are grim men of face, worn like weathered rocks for the most part, even as Aragorn himself; and they are silent.'


So they are definitely superior to the Riders of Rohan, but that doesn't really say that they're better than the Rangers of Ithilien (RoI).

The Return of the King, Book One, Chapter II, The Passing of the Grey Company, page 765 wrote:
The Lady Éowyn greeted them as was glad of their coming; for no mightier men had she seen thatn the Dúnedain and the fair sons of Elrond; but on Aragorn most of all her eyes rested.


And then there's one more, also from the same chapter:

The Return of the King, Book One, Chapter II, The Passing of the Grey Company, page 766 wrote:
'But this is madness,' she said. 'For here are men of renown and prowess, whom you should not take into the shadows, but should lead to war, where men are needed....'


So like I said--those quotes don't prove anything on their own, but they definitely show that the Dúnedain were greater than normal men, mighty and skilled. The RoI never have anything like that said about them, so you can draw from that the conclusion that the Dúnedain of Arnor were greater. Ultimately, though, it's your choice whether or not to believe it.

I've got an idea though--to avoid overrunning this thread with the debate, we could start a topic in the Misc. LotR Books section or something. I have to get off for now, but if I'm on again before you are, I'll start it--if you are on first, I'd ask that you copy our debate, such as it is, to the topic, so that we can quote it, etc.

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PostPosted: February 26th, 2007, 12:48 pm 
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Aerandir wrote:
Lol, Tar.

Okay, EBM--while these quotes don't prove anything by themselves, just remember that nothing like this is ever said about the Rangers of Ithilien. To all appearances, those are just like normal men of Gondor.

The Return of the King, Book One, Chapter II, The Passing of the Grey Company, page 759 wrote:
'They are a strange company, these newcomers,' said Gimli. 'Stout and lordly they are, and the Riders of Rohan look almost as boys beside them; for they are grim men of face, worn like weathered rocks for the most part, even as Aragorn himself; and they are silent.'


So they are definitely superior to the Riders of Rohan, but that doesn't really say that they're better than the Rangers of Ithilien (RoI).

The Return of the King, Book One, Chapter II, The Passing of the Grey Company, page 765 wrote:
The Lady Éowyn greeted them as was glad of their coming; for no mightier men had she seen thatn the Dúnedain and the fair sons of Elrond; but on Aragorn most of all her eyes rested.


And then there's one more, also from the same chapter:

The Return of the King, Book One, Chapter II, The Passing of the Grey Company, page 766 wrote:
'But this is madness,' she said. 'For here are men of renown and prowess, whom you should not take into the shadows, but should lead to war, where men are needed....'


So like I said--those quotes don't prove anything on their own, but they definitely show that the Dúnedain were greater than normal men, mighty and skilled. The RoI never have anything like that said about them, so you can draw from that the conclusion that the Dúnedain of Arnor were greater. Ultimately, though, it's your choice whether or not to believe it.

I've got an idea though--to avoid overrunning this thread with the debate, we could start a topic in the Misc. LotR Books section or something. I have to get off for now, but if I'm on again before you are, I'll start it--if you are on first, I'd ask that you copy our debate, such as it is, to the topic, so that we can quote it, etc.


I have been called a fair man and I will settle this in a fashion I deem and I think you wil deem equitable and acceptable. I will say that for individual skills, The northern rangers may have been better individually. However, since the ithilen rangers always work in groups, then they are better group fighters as their style is where they work together ot take out enemies piecemeal.The dunedain may be somewhat more leadership based, but I think that the men of Ithilien were more canny, as they would fight but not where they could not win at all, practising th emilitary maxim " those who fight and run away, live to fight another day" while th enorthern dunedain are less likely to pull out from a doomed combat due to their judgement of their own skill. So they both have their virtues. It depends on your fight
also, I will say that the rangers were picked for their knowledge of th ewoods, but also for their superb soldiering skills as well as their skills in woodcraft. They could be expected to fight as normal gondorian line soldier and so they were a combat secialist arm of the gondorian military with the name ranger as an honourific title, signifying the soldiers skill such as Marines in modern warfare. It wasnt just for a title given out of the sheer hell of it
There. Does that seem a fair compromise?


Oh I just read ur post in more detail. I think, taht none of th epeople who spoke there had fought besides the ROI, so dont know them from impression. But I say, lets leave it there.

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PostPosted: February 26th, 2007, 3:46 pm 
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Yeah, that seems like a fair compromise.

But your last statement (about none of those quoted having fought by the RoI) was true--I mentioned that the quotes only implied that the Dúnedain of Arnor were better, but it didn't prove it.

But I think that was a very fun and interesting debate. I congratulate you on several well-stated points.

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Aerandir wrote:
Yeah, that seems like a fair compromise.

But your last statement (about none of those quoted having fought by the RoI) was true--I mentioned that the quotes only implied that the Dúnedain of Arnor were better, but it didn't prove it.

But I think that was a very fun and interesting debate. I congratulate you on several well-stated points.


We fought an epic battle, Like matching Achilles and Hercules in single combat :-D Still, this debate is finished, do any of our esteemed colleagues have any specific thing they desire muchly to speak bout?
And I know my points rock, But not as much as me lol :-p

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PostPosted: February 26th, 2007, 5:24 pm 
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so that was where he got ideas from. the rules of single combat Aerandir (smiles a little and chuckles evilly)

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