Thought I would just give my account of the Dagor Dagorath, becuase it has cropped up a number of times in other threads.

Here follows my account of the Great End:

It happens at around the 9th Age of th World or more (for the 6th was supposed to have ended with the second World War).
The Valar at last are growing weary with the World, as are the Eldar that dwell with them. Melkor who has been brooding for many thousands of years in the Outer Dark now see's his chance to return.
In Tolkien's earliest concepts of this battle Melko contrives a quarrel between the Sun and Moon (both are Maiar spirits) and both are destroyed.
Sauron also returns and there is some obscure quote somewhere I remember about some servant of Darkness gnawing his bonds free (I believe I have listed it below).
Melko with the greatest host ever assembled arrives on the plains of Valinor and then Manwe descneds from his lofty throne and orders the great Battle and the final End.
In this battle Sauron is slain by Olorin/Gandalf, whilst Eonwe and Tulkas duel with Melkor but by the hand of Turin Turambar, the only Man ressurected from the Dead, is Melkor dealt his death blow and the House of Hurin is avenged.
In this battle also Ar-pharazon, last king of Numenor and his great host which were imprisoned countless years before in the Caves of the Forgotten are set free and fight (but for which side I cannot remember.

Thus Melkor and his servant Sauron are finally laid impotent and banished back to Eru to receive there due fate.
However becuase Melkor poured so much of his power into Arda itself (as did Sauron in his Ring), Arda had to be broken in order for Melkor to be destroyed.
Thus is what came to pass and the re-making of the World was done by the Aule and the Dwarves, and thus the Second Arda appears in which only Men participate with the Ainur in the Second Great Music. Of the fate of Elves Iluvatar has not declared.

Also in an early concept of this battle Melkor is slayed not by Turin, but by Fionwe:

"Fionwe's rage and grief. In the end he will slay Melko. 'Orion' is only the image of Telimektar in the sky? [sic] Varda gave him stars, and he bears them aloft that the Gods may know he watches; he has diamonds on his sword-sheath, and this will go red when he draws his sword at the Great End."

The Last Battle is portended by Menelmaca, a Star group made by Varda to signal the fall of Morgoth.

Also after the Battle Feanor is allowed finally to be brought back as the Silmarils are recovered from Air, Water and Fire. Here Feanor finally consents to brake them open so Yavanna can kindle the Two trees once again. The Pelori mountains are levelled so that their light can flow thence out over all the world even unto the furthest East.

Quotes about the Dagor Dagorath and the Second Arda:

"After the triumph of the Gods, Earendel sailed still in the seas of heaven, but the Sun scorched him and the Moon hunted him in the sky . . . Then the Valar drew his white ship Wingelot over the land of Valinor, and they filled it with radiance and hallowed it, and launched it through the Door of Night. And long Earendel set sail into the starless vast, Elwing at his side, the Silmaril upon his brow, voyaging the Dark behind the world, a glimmering and fugitive star. And ever and anon he returns and shines behind the courses of the Sun and Moon above the ramparts of the Gods, brighter than all other stars, the mariner of the sky, keeping watch against Morgoth upon the confines of the world. Thus shall he sail until he sees the Last Battle fought upon the plains of Valinor.

"Thus spake the prophecy of Mandos, which he declared in Valmar at the judgement of the Gods, and the rumour of it was whispered among all the Elves of the West: when the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth shall come back through the Door out of the Timeless Night; and he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon, but Earendel shall come upon him as a white flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate; and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the Children of Hurin and all men be avenged."

"Thereafter shall the Silmarils be recovered out of sea and earth and air; for Earendil shall descend and yield up that flame that he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall bear the Three and yield their fire to rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth; and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the light goes out over all the world. In that light the Gods will again grow young, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Turin only, and him it names among the Gods."

"But Ar-Pharazôn the King and the mortal warriors that had set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills: there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom."

"For they say that Aulë the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Ilúvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aulë and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle."

"Carnil and Luinil, Nénar and Lumbar, Alcarinquë and Elemmírë she wrought in that time, and many other of the ancient stars she gathered together and set as signs in the heavens of Arda: Wilwarin, Telumendil, Soronúmë, and Anarríma; and Menelmacar with his shining belt, that forebodes the Last Battle that shall be at the end of days. And high in the north as a challenge to Melkor she set the crown of seven mighty stars to swing, Valacirca, the Sickle of the Valar and sign of doom."

"Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased."

"For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

"Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it."

"But I think it was not so. Manwë will not descend from the Mountain until Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns. 8 To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eönwë. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coëval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olórin was his name. But of Olórin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf."

"Melko again breaks away, by the aid of Tevildo (who in long ages gnaws his bonds); the Gods are in dissension about Men and Elves, some favouring the one and some the other."(???)

"But they were still living on the borders of myth – or rather this story exhibits 'myth' passing into History or the Dominion of Men; for of course the Shadow will arise again in a sense (as is clearly foretold by Gandalf), but never again (unless it be before the great End) will an evil daemon be incarnate as a physical enemy...."

"Then ride they with him in chariots or upon good horses down into the vale of Valinor and feast in the halls of Valmar, dwelling in the houses of the Gods until the Great End come."

"Melko assembled all his most cunning smiths and sorcerers, and of iron and flame they wrought a host of monsters such as have only at that time been seen and shall not again be till the Great End."

"Melko is thus now out of the world -- but one day he will find a way back, and the last great uproars will begin before the Great End."

"Gilfanon also prophesies concerning the Great End, and of the Wrack of Things, and of Fionwe,
Tulkas, and Melko and the last fight on the Plains of Valinor. Eriol ends his life at Tavrobel but in his last days is consumed with longing for the black cliffs of his shores, even as Meril said."

"This they will only do with the help of Men. If Men aid them, the fairies will take Men to Valinor -- those that wish to go -- fight a great battle with Melko in Erumani and open Valinor.~ Laurelin and Silpion will be rekindled, and the mountain wall being destroyed then soft radiance will spread over all the world, and the Sun and Moon will be recalled. If Men oppose them and aid Melko the Wrack of the Gods and the ending of the fairies will result -- and maybe the Great End."

Quotes taken from Unfinished Tales, The Silmarillion, HOME and Letters.

As you can see many of the quotes refer to things of early concept. For instance the naming of the Two Trees as Laurelin and Silpion as opposed to Laurelin and Telperion. Also the naming of Earendil as 'Earendel'. This is indeed a very early concept.

This is my account of the Last Battle and the Day of Doom, the Dagor Dagorath, the Great End and the Second World.

A very interesting post I must say. Now I've only got one question. Who is Fionwe?? I've never heard this name before

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Great post Lord of all! I'm glad this thread has been created. I've always been fascinated by the Dagor Dagorath. I will try to find time to post my thoughts about it.

Now regards Fionwe. If I may answer in your stead Lord of All, Firiel, he was supposed to be the son of Manwe and the one who would slay Morgoth in the end. But that was an earlier writing, which was then replaced by Turin Turambar who would kill Melkor.

Thanks.

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So here are some of my thoughts:-



I presume that this thought came to you through this quote:-
“but of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Turin only, and him it names among the Gods."

Which, in my opinion, doesn’t necessarily mean that Turin will be the only Man resurrected from the Dead. Reading the quote attentively, one would notice that when the phrase “save of Turin only” refers simply to the fact that the prophecy doesn’t speak of Men. So we cannot be sure that Men won’t present that Day. They might be.


Now, regards the (i.e. Melkor’s Bonds), you quoted this:-
"Melko again breaks away, by the aid of Tevildo (who in long ages gnaws his bonds);…”

Now apparently, Tevildo was the Prince (or Lord) of Cats. In ‘The Book of Lost Tales’, Beren is a Noldorin Elf. The role of Sauron is occupied by the character Tevildo, the Prince of Cats, who fought against Huan. Therefore, the above quote must have been taken (even because of the name ‘Melko’), from Tolkien’s earliest concepts.

Therefore, one might cautiously conclude, that in the final version (where also it is Turin who kills Melkor), it is Sauron that breaks the bonds that allow Morgoth to re-appear. But this comment doesn’t agree with what you have quoted Lord of All in this sentence:-



Any help so we can resolve this matter about Tevildo would be great.

Thanks.

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That quote was the most unsure in my post.

"Beren's companions, their disguising as Orcs, and their capture by the Lord of Wolves. On the contrary, Beren goes to Angband alone just as he did in the Tale of Tinuviel, and - most notably - is given to 'Thu the hunter' as a slave, just as in the Tale he was given to Tevildo Prince of Cats as a slave."



Now 'Thu' is Sauron. This quote does not seem to indicate therefore that Tevildo, Lord of Cats, is Sauron also.

This also confirms it:

"Tevildo Prince of Cats was a demonic
servant of Melko and the remote forerunner of Sauron; he is a principal actor in the original story of Beren and Tinuviel, which was also already written (the Tale of Tinuviel)."

The Are some other quotes in the Book of Lost Tales, 1 and 2 and the Lay of Beleriand.

In short Tevildo was Tolkien first idear of a great servant of Melkor before Sauron. They are not the same. Tevildo is the Lord of cats that seems to have a place set aside from Angband and is basically Melkor's pet.
This is a going back a long way into Tolkien's idears. I have not delved so far back before...

As to the name 'Melko' it is in fact Melkor's true name. Only when Melko descended into Ea did he name himself 'Melkor' meaning he who descends in might. In the Void he is Melko. But addmittedly that name is generally only used in older tales.

And indeed Fionwe is Manwe and Varda's son in Tolkien's earlier concepts:

"And the children of Manwe and Varda are Fionwe Urion their son, and Ilmare their daughter;(25) and these were the eldest of the children of the Valar."

As we know Valar don't have children.

And as for Men fighting in the Last battle we know nothing. I believe that only Elves were there and the Ainur, and only Ar-pharazon and his hord were present to fight for Men. Turin only was there mentioned.
I think also that Men would not fight in this battle. This battle is for the Elves, they are ending the evil that inhabited there world and destroying it for Men and there second world. This Battle is the highlight of the Elven kindred - this is there Golden hour.

Thanks for the post, Lord of All.

Fíriel, Fionwe was pretty much the original concept of Eonwe. Later on, Tolkien changed his name and altered his position from being Manwe's son to being his herald.

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Ok, thanks a lot for answering my question. That was very helpful

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This is fascinating. Thank you for posting such a wealth of information.
I'm really curious about your sources. Particularly, where did you read that the sixth age was supposed to have ended with the second world war? That's really interesting.

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I am a Shieldmaiden for Christ!

I was Nienor before Nienor was cool. *nods coolly*
Kudos to Kitoky for the fabulous signature set, and art credit to engelszorn.
Who wants to join me in bringing back the lady?

I'd say that probably comes from The Letters of JRR Tolkien or The History of Middle-earth books. If it's in the latter, it's probably in Christopher's commentary.

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Yes its one of those hard to find quotes but here is something:

"I imagine the gap to be about 6000 years : that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as S.A. and T.A. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh." - footnote to letter to 211 To Rhona Beare

Hah. I was right--it was in The Letters of JRR Tolkien .

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